If disability and television are your thing, you will have noticed some significant improvements of late. On-screen, we know #RepresentationMatters but behind the camera is equally important.
Our guests this month are two of the people who are instrumental in changing the landscape of disability and television. Nichola Garde is the Project Manager of Elevate. This is the BBC’s mid-career-boosting scheme for behind screen talent who have a disability. Allan MacKillop is Disability Team Leader covering both creative and workforce strategy at the BBC. A massive brief with high expectations.
We asked Allan and Nichola why so much change now? What do they think are the best methods for the improvement of disability and television? We talk pan-industry as Channel 4, ITV, Netflix, and others push this forward. Indeed, Netflix has a genre of disability-related programmes now. We ask Allan and Nichola’s advice on getting in and getting ahead in the industry. Finally, we offer them a magic wand to see what else is on their wish list. Naturally, we ask how they got to where they are and what adjustments they need to be the best they can be.
Links
Twitter @NicholaGarde @AllanMacKill
If disability and television are your thing, you will have noticed some significant improvements of late. On-screen, we know #RepresentationMatters but behind the camera is equally important.
Our guests this month are two of the people who are instrumental in changing the landscape of disability and television. Nichola Garde is the Project Manager of Elevate. This is the BBC’s mid-career-boosting scheme for behind screen talent who have a disability. Allan MacKillop is Disability Team Leader covering both creative and workforce strategy at the BBC. A massive brief with high expectations.
We asked Allan and Nichola why so much change now? What do they think are the best methods for the improvement of disability and television? We talk pan-industry as Channel 4, ITV, Netflix, and others push this forward. Indeed, Netflix has a genre of disability-related programmes now. We ask Allan and Nichola’s advice on getting in and getting ahead in the industry. Finally, we offer them a magic wand to see what else is on their wish list. Naturally, we ask how they got to where they are and what adjustments they need to be the best they can be.
Links
Twitter @NicholaGarde @AllanMacKill
Announcer
This is The Way We Roll presented by Simon Minty and Phil Friend. You can email us at mintyandfriend@gmail.com or just search for Minty and Friend on social media. We're on Facebook, Twitter and LinkedIn
Simon Minty
Hello and welcome to The Way We Roll with me Simon Minty.
Phil Friend
And me Phil Friend.
Simon Minty
We all know hashtag representation matters, ie what we see in here by media about disability has a huge impact on how the public view and understand disability. And this also provides creative opportunities for talented disabled people and career opportunities for those behind the camera. It feels like a golden age I used to say there's no one like me on TV when I was growing up. But I kind of think the current generation of children won't quite be able to say that. We recently had When Barbara met Allen on the BBC, the film Coda won a BAFTA and an Oscar. There's lots of Paralympic coverage that's been going on for years. And then stars like Ellie Simmons and Sophie Morgan, theatre wise there's Liz Carr went from Silent Witness to win an Olivier on the National Theatre. There's Call the Midwife, Coronation Street EastEnders, they all have recurring characters who have a disability. There's the A word that focuses on it, Doctor Who plays with it. The Last Leg on Channel Four is an ever-present show that has disability and lots more besides, now, this list isn't endless, but it is substantial. And our apologies because we haven't mentioned everything, there's loads more. But what we used to be able to count on maybe one or two hands isn't the same now. It feels from where Phil and I are that there's almost a "come on", let's just do this attitude now from the media industry after many years, of yes, we care. It's important, but it's a bit tricky and a bit awkward.
Phil Friend
Thankfully, we have two guests who can help us understand where we're at with media and disability today. Nicola Garde and Allan MacKillop both work for the BBC. Simon,
Simon Minty
Full disclosure one of them is one of my best friends. I've known her for 20 years Nicola Garde or Nick, what are you doing for the BBC.
Nichola Garde
Lovely to be here, thank you. I am the project manager of Elevate, which is the initiative and scheme that comes out of BBC Content to work with mid-level, off-screen deaf, disabled and neurodivergent production talents and place them across the industry. And people have felt that there are barriers within the industry that have stopped them from progressing compared to their peers, their non-disabled peers. And it might be that they've left the industry because it just all just got a little bit too hard work. Or that they've just stayed in the same role for far too long. And there's not been that opportunity. Somebody described me as an agent on LinkedIn, which really made me laugh through like, I've got this agent now. And I'm definitely not an agent. I definitely don't get a commission either. That would be amazing if I did. But yeah, introduce basically the production team to brilliant talent. And then we support them whilst they're doing their work. And so they can bring their best selves to work. We'd support them with the usual reasonable adjustments and that kind of stuff.
Phil Friend
And now our second guest, Alan MacKillop, I have to disclose as well, I've known well, Simon has to, but we both known Allan for a very long time. Allan I was trying to remember, I think it was Bank of Scotland when I first met you.
Allan MacKillop
Yeah, I think I was at the time my career originally started, and within the IT industry. So there are a number of kind of technical roles there. Gradually, I got into kind of disability support networks. And I think that's probably the time that I met most of you. Because the role I used to do back then voluntarily was kind of like their events manager. So I kind of used to run try and organize a number of profile raising events to try and get the network, you know, increase the network's footprint within the organization. So that's kind of when I ran into you guys because you guys were kind of the disability advocates of the time. You knew everybody and and everybody else.
Phil Friend
What's your role at the BBC now then
Allan MacKillop
I'll give you a shorter answer than Nicola. (Laughter) I think my my role is officially, disability lead in Workforce Strategy. So I front up all our D&I initiatives that affect the disability journey right from when people apply to the BBC. Go right through the journey again, adjustments, career development, the whole, the whole shebang. Also, you know, a kind of from a workforce perspective, I represent the BBC externally wherev I can. I also work during an external role with the government, where I'm one of the disability access ambassadors that represents and helps shape the narrative for creative industries. But there we are.
Simon Minty
Thank you. Thanks. Alright, just hearing about both your jobs, I adore the fact that you're both there doing what you do. I think this is amazing and awesome. I'm gonna do a slightly clunky bit, but it is the nature of our show. So I just kind of wondered if you wanted to give a sort of brief escription of how you describe your type of disability or a condition. And yeah, have you got any adjustments? And what have you got at the BBC? So we'll flip it around with Allan, how would you describe yourself in any way
Allan MacKillop
What I have is a skeletal condition osteogenesis imperfecta, which is commonly known as brittle bones is that available brittle bones that came from when I was a child my skeleton didn't ossify properly. So that ossification process, the young children go through didn't occur, so I've probably had 20 to 30 fractures throughout my life or various things. Some of them very humorous, I fractured my skull while I was drunk one night coming out of a pub, and forgot where the disabled access door was and fell down the stairs. That was my claim to fame. And it was the next morning when I was laying in bed, though I had this crunching sensation when I pressed my temple, and I thought I'd better to go to the hospital and get this checked out. There was a lot of trauma associated with that. In terms of the adjustments I have on a more small stature short stature I'm a bit like Simon I'm a wheelchair user. But I think the hardest thing I've found is the things that develop later in life. And one of those things has been over the last 20 years so now I'm profoundly deaf. So what the adjustments I have, you know, I have a desk at work, get support with travel, I drive as well. I also have a couple of hearing aids and digital technology that allows me to use the telephone take part in meetings like this makes training and seminars slightly easier, the deafness, I would say is the biggest challenge. I will be honest with you,
Phil Friend
Nichola, what's the what's your what's your agenda in the disability department.
Nichola Garde
So I have achrondroplasia which is the elite form of dwarfism. (Laughter) Compared to OCD, you know, we're just a little bit more you know, which means I stand at four foot two, I started actually at BBC during lockdown. So I started when we're working from home in June, and I haven't, I've been into London to the office, but like, just like for a day or been in Salford, so I I've not had any reasonable adjustments, but but not at all through the BBC. It's not Allan's fault. I keep asking him and he just won't give them me. (Laughter) No, I just, I just have
Allan MacKillop
There not reasonable. Yeah.
Nichola Garde
I just haven't asked for any but I Simon knows my relation. I do need to I do need to possibly think about a chair. But I'm very concerned that it might not fit with the design of my house. So to get an adjusted chair that still fits in with the Zen. But no, in all seriousness, I would probably need a chair. That kind of maybe closer to the desk, and a footstool. That's a really important thing. footstool I'm using a kickstool at the moment, but a footstool would be great.
Simon Minty
Now, whilst Yes, your relationship with adjustments is a joy, and it always has been but you're also right. You don't want some clunky, horrible bit of kit that ruins your house or your office, you still want to have some style. I totally get that.
Phil Friend
I suppose. I mean, what we want to talk about, obviously with you guys is the journey that the BBC is on and and I remember when I first met the BBC. I'm talking a long time ago, disability wasn't in the equality statement. It didn't get mentioned it was about race, gender and sexual orientation. That was it. We've come a very long way since those days the idea that you'd have somebody helping people with their career. I mean, who are disabled, would just be I mean beyond belief back in those days. So the journey is huge. It's already gone a very long way. And the proof of the pudding is that you're both in your jobs. You know the roles that you play a critically important to disability equality stuff. But I suppose the question to start with is what you see as the challenges that lie ahead of both of you as you continue the transformation, which is clearly going on inside the BBC for the positive.
Simon Minty
Just for my benefit it doesn't have to be the BBC. I like it is the media industry. I think there's lots going on. So you don't just have to be solely
Phil Friend
who'd like to start I suppose is the question?
Allan MacKillop
I think the challenge, are on a lot of fronts, I think when we were looking at the script before we came on, here, we were talking about, you know, that kind of halcyon golden age for and I think, on the back of the kind of, you know, the human rights model, you can see the evolution of roles, like Nich and I in terms of support and start specialized roles, and the mainstream of disability, as Simon said, in terms of programming, but the challenges going forward will be around the challenges that the business face in terms of trying to do more for less, and trying to get access to the appropriate government funding that's available. And that will always be the challenge while trying to keep the narrative progressing as its progressed so far, I think.
Phil Friend
Right? Yeah. And Nichola, I mean, obviously, you're, you're more sort of connected into what I've called going, what goes on behind the camera, or behind the microphone, and so on. And taking Simon's point about the bigger picture, you know, the media in general, how do you think it's going? What are the big challenges you face in helping people develop careers and so on?
Nichola Garde
So I think we're on a wave. And I think that kind of got started with you guys. And then it's kind of built. And then recently, we had Jack Thorne's McTaggart speech at Edinburgh. And that kind of threw a real lens. And I know now everyone across the industry, you know, we've recently had a pan industry meeting where everyone got together and talked about how do we respond to the underlying health condition proposal, which was set by Jack following, and his team, following McTaggart. So I think it feels what I get really anxious about, it feels like we've got this real window, and this real moment in time where we can do something. But just like Allan said, if the environment and the budget isn't there to do it, then we're going to miss it. And I can get 30 people in with Elevate, and that's brilliant. And the talent is there. And what's great is, you know, so many people applied that, when commissioners now say to me, well, we don't know where to look for talent, it's like, I know where to look, here they are. But if we can't provide an environment, which is not only accessible, but also inclusive culturally, you know, it makes them feel like they belong in this industry, and they want to stay in this industry. And a lot of that means reasonable adjustments, it can mean lines in budgets moving forward, it can mean, you know, where it becomes business as usual, rather than we have a scheme like Elevate, if we're not prepared for that. And if we haven't got the buy in from the basically the broadcasters and the streamers, to fund that, and to support that. And to change the way that a working day looks in the industry, then that window will go and we'll have done a great thing by getting everyone in and then it'll just disappear. And then we'll have to start again. And that's the bit that kind of keeps me awake at night is we need to do it whilst it's hot. But if we haven't got the infrastructure to do it, and we're not ready, then that could be really, you know, the moment could go.
Allan MacKillop
I think the thing would say there just before Simon comes in, I think the positive thing on that is that I'm more jumping up about that there was a lot more collaboration between the broadcaster's now so we've been collaborating As Nick said around the output the response to the Jack Thorne report. So that's a major step forward, we've collaborated around the use of the adjustment of disability passports, that's a major step forward. A lot of the conversations I'm having with government, is that ministers are more than happy to kind of see this more as a pan political issue, rather than something where they're entrenched in their own ideological bunkers. You know,
Phil Friend
Allan just before Simon jumps in, can you just explain to the listeners because they may not know what the disability passport thing is?
Allan MacKillop
Yeah. So basically, it's a document that disabled people can use when they enter the BBC. And it will come in pan industry now, not just within broadcasting but within a lot of the civil service agencies like you know, DWP employment service are using. So basically its a document disabled people can bring with them, where they can articulate how perhaps their long term health condition affects them in the workplace and the adjustments they need. Now, I've simplified that there. The way we use it, we like to kind of look at it as a relationship building tool between the individual and their managerr, we can have like the individual to think about how not just about their physical, visible condition, but if they have any non visible conditions, you know, how they like work to be presented, how they like to be communicated with? What makes them happy? What makes them uneasy? These kind of things? Now, it gets absorbed into the organization and stays with them for their whole career journey. Right you when you leave the organization that can obviously take it with them when they go
Phil Friend
Thank you that's helpful.
Simon Minty
yeah, I remember the passport coming out. But it was great when people just identify what they need. The two add ons I'd add is that were, it's been broader now, isn't it? It doesn't have to be disability. Anybody can have it. And I know Triple C and Jack Thorne are saying everyone should have a passport to say this is how I work. And I kind of like that democratization, so long as as we don't lose the essential adjustments for those who need
Allan MacKillop
That's the thing, and I think what's going to happen, Simon is that the government are really pushing now that the widener as you say to students, veterans, veterans coming out of the Army, and the long term aim is they're going to introduce it to school children at year 9 or 10. So we're going to be at a stage where most disabled, young people will appear for employment saying, This is my passport. So that's what the long term aim would be and that will take the whole discussion and narrative around awkwardness of disability, hopefully away from that process.
Simon Minty
I want to do a joke about Brexit, but I can't think of the right one, but I'm gonna leave it. Okay, so I'm just going back to something that both of you said, and I think it's very natural. We're excited. And it's interesting. And while we've got the will, we've got the attitude and we got the budgets, great stuff is happening. But there's a little hesitation of like, well, okay, we you know, it's like make hay while the sun shines, because we don't want to go, I do hope this is a proper shift that it stays there. I'm always fearful of when key people like yourselves and your colleagues, if you moved on, would it still have that strength, and it shouldn't be it should be part of the organization. And I'm going to try and be a bit more positive. And say, tell us about two or three of the things that you have been involved in either the BBC or across the industry that you think this has just been fantastic, and revolutionary where you're, and it can also be individuals, you know, just a win that you really liked. And maybe Nick is there some really great moments that you just thought my job is the best ever.
Nichola Garde
Yeah. And it's been this new round of obviously working with Allan, but now it's
Allan MacKillop
(Laughter) You'll regret saying that!
Nichola Garde
It's, I mean, I'm new, back at the BBC, I used to work in production. And you know, so I'd come back in a different role. And, and I have that kind of experience working in production. So it's been great to work with the Elevate candidates. And I think so far, that part working with them as individuals has been my absolute highlight and watching you know, people returning. I just had a researcher AP that's returned to the industry after leaving following quite bad experience that he believed was around his disability, and redundancy. And left the industry around that. And has returned on Elevate, and really wants to work it as a quiz show writer, and we've just given is first not given we introduced him to a role. They said he was the best person they've interviewed across the board. He'd watched every single episode of the quiz show for the interview. And there's like around 50 episodes, they just rang me and said, it was amazing. Of course, we'll say you know, his experience. He's passionate about the show, he can bring so much. And I got an email from him that was just like, you know, I'm basically living my best life. Now I've returned to where I belong. He's been out of the industry for 10 years. So it's those moments that I think are for me, you know, the highlights?
Simon Minty
What is the reception you get on the whole and I'm generalizing, but whether it's an indie or whether it's BBC Productions. When you say, look, I've got somebody, are they kind of Yeah, cool. Are they still nervous?
Nichola Garde
A little bit, sometimes a little bit nervous? Overall, really positive because what they're what they're, I think what they initially think is brilliant, it's going to solve that problem, because I've got these diversity targets, and I need to solve them. And I don't know where to look for that talent. And Nic's, bringing that talent, this is great. But once they've got over that relief of brilliant, who have you got its then talking about, okay, what are we going to do to include them into your team? And how is that going to work? And then it just becomes invisible. They start on the production and sometimes everyone but most of the time everyone forgets they've gone through Elevate, everyone forgets that we exist and they're just working business as usual on the team. And we do an evaluation after every time after every kind of placement or every job. And you know, and every time of course, we'd engage with disabled part again, of course, we will do this again, of course, we would like to continue to do this. And of course, we would like Joe, to come back, you know. And we now recognize that all of that kind of fear and trepidation around, oh, how do we ask about reasonable adjustments? Or, you know, what about, you know, we've got a Deaf researcher, how are they going to make phone calls? And once that has gone, we've made that you know, not something that we can't talk about, then I think it helps.
Simon Minty
I'm going to let you move on. But I have one more last question. Do you sometimes have a difficult conversation with the candidates where say, they're very talented, but their attitude is not right? Or have you had to kind of say to one of them, look, if you this isn't disability related? This is how you're approaching this? Do you have to do that?
Nichola Garde
it a couple of times? Yeah. And I think what can often happen, and it's due to a string of microaggressions, that have happened to them throughout their lives. So then, and especially within the industry, so then when something does happen, it's actually just the industry because it's a pretty tough industry. You know what I mean, it's not for everyone, whether you're, you know, disabled a woman, a parent, you know, for everyone, it's a tricky industry to navigate. So yeah, I have had to have a couple of conversations. But you don't want to if they feel that you've got to explore that, you know, when you don't want to kind of take that feeling away from them. But you've got to introduce it, that this might not be disability related.
Announcer
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Phil Friend
When I'm listening to Nicola, I'm hearing, you know, direct contact with colleagues and driving their ambitions. And that kind of thing, you're in a slightly different place, aren't you Allan? Well, and because you're looking at policy and strategy, and it's in some ways, less personal, but absolutely vital. So what are the sort of what's your win, because I, you know, we've known you a long time, we know, your job is pretty lonely at times. And I wondered how you, you know, how you're, how you bring about change in the, in the grand scheme of things, really,
Allan MacKillop
I think some of the wins, we've had, we've had, we've had some wins. And it's and it's sometimes because of the pressure, you tend to forget the progress that we've made, we spoke about the passport. So that was a big game changer some of the things we brought in with developing our training portfolio where managers understand now how to have an inclusive conversation with a disabled person. And they're put in these kinds of scenarios with actors that that morphed from the early days of some of the training, and I think that Simon and yourself, did with the BBC, so we use that idea. That won't stay in place forever. But what it is, there's a starting point of where the next generation of training will come from. Because what the what the managers have been put in a position with a disabled person, different types of disability, not necessarily just having conversations about adjustments, that's the key. The key is having that type of management type conversations that any line manager would be expected to have things like performance issues, with someone knocked back for promotion, that feel should have got promotion, you know, theses kind of how to handle those kind of things. So they're put in various scenarios that's trying to help with that I think that's been a big step forward. And I think that that will inform the next next revolution of training that we do at the BBC, I think another thing that we've we've done fairly well and are doing fairly well, is that once you have a disability allies programme, because we've went out and we're continuing to go out pan BBC wide, and we will run a training seminar to teach people how to be a disability ally. And we did put a lot of work into that. And we use the positive reception that we had when we did the LGBTQplus allies program and developed that into disability now, as well. So these, these are the kind of more positive highlights but you're right Phil. It's It's a lonely job its pressurized, you know, but I signed up to it. I'll be here till the gold watch is given or I'm carried out feety first.
Phil Friend
Are there people like you? I mean, Simon's earlier point about, you know, the media generally, you know, making media being in theatre, being in TV being on radio or being on webs, social media, are there people that you have come across who are like you, Alan in those other areas, or are you in some ways, a bit unique in the BBC.
Allan MacKillop
There's nobody quite as good as me Phil (laughter) I think a couple of things there. I want to go back slightly there. We were talking about Nic having a conversation with people have come on that journey that That's one of the things I noticed when I came into the BBC. We have a lot of situations with people that maybe have had been affected by the journey they've come on. I think that's something we need to look at going forward. Pan industry and how we have these conversations with individuals. I think people like me, I think Ross Hovey at Lloyds is very much in a similar similar role to me with really working with the workforce. So, I think there probably are one or two, there aren't many that are there at the coalface.
Simon Minty
I imagine I know, both of you are very skilled negotiators. And you get people to do things that you want them to do. And that you know, is right. And that's in an industry that people are not known necessarily for patience or necessarily kindness or something. Plus, you both work in television in a roundabout way. And kind of all those listening, who want to get in on want to do stuff, what would be your sort of top negotiating tips, what should be their approach? Maybe Nick?
Nichola Garde
Energy. So think for me, it's it's that I do care about this, like I care about when I turn my computer off, still, probably sometimes a bit too much. And that might be something that I need to explore outside of work. But you know, I should switch off maybe sometimes, but I think having the energy for what you do, and compassion in how you communicate that so you're not telling people what to do, but you're working together, and you're having conversations around disability, that people are creating a space where people feel that they can be open, and ask you questions that they might not have been able to ask before. So in terms of our roles in terms of coming into these kinds of roles, and I think empathy in terms of sometimes it's really difficult to understand how somebody else feels, because it's really frustrating. Just wondering, why don't you just do it, just do it? Why do I have to explain why I have to do it, you know. So I think having that patience around that. But I think, for me, it's about keeping that energy up and making it feel a bit more joyous. You know, that it's not just a tick boxing thing. But actually, this could really create an industry which adds creativity and adds talent. And it can only be a good thing.
Simon Minty
I'm gonna be a pedant. But is it the same as what you talk about about enthusiasm it's a bit like that person who watched 50 episodes, it's like that, you're gonna get knocked back. So that enthusiasm has to stay, you're always there.
Nichola Garde
Yeah absolutely. And just that kind of authentic engagement, you're not just coming into Telly, because it sounds like a good industry, or it sounds like you know, that you might want to be on screen or you want to become, but actually that you really have a passion for making programs and for changing representation both on and off screen. And it's something that you want to do.
Phil Friend
It's it's good old fashioned, giving a damn isn't it wanting to see something change. Yeah. What about for you, Allan?
Allan MacKillop
I think what I would say is, a best way to look at is if you're dealing with someone who's obviously blocking you. I think the way you've got to do it is you've got to come across as if you're their friend, you can see it from their perspective. And your their mate. Even if that's not the case, you've got to do that. You've often got a come intoit with, with some background, just backup, what your what your stance is, what you're proposing X, why are you proposing X? Why is it a good idea. Do your do your work before that, you know, the big known or whatever. And it's like this is the hard part is don't slip into the natural confrontation mode. Because it goes by it's a conversation we just had, you know, people were affected by the journey they're on the journeys that came on what can often happen if their backs put against the wall as they can revert back to, you know, turning it into confrontation, which won't progress the situation you know,
Phil Friend
Nic. I'm just wanting to pick up on Allen's point and just say, you know, so how do you stay? How do you stay sane in the middle of all that? I don't mean mental health now. I just mean, how do you keep on doing Nic's point was high energy every day give everything you're doing the same in a different role Allan but how do you stay on top because you must have days where it's really tough.
Nichola Garde
I call Simon (laughter) literally that I call Simon and say, oh my god, I'm gonna leave. I'm gonna leave. I can't do it. I can't do it.
Allan MacKillop
The tough part is when I when my phone goes and it says Nichola Guard. Here we gol. I think one of the questions in the scripts was, you know what happens when you have that tough day? Yes, I can answer that for Nicola. She'll phone me problem, a problem, half is a problem solved
Nichola Garde
Without a doubt.
Phil Friend
But I think you're both making very serious points, aren't you, you've got to have some way of venting, relaxing, getting it off your chest out of your head somehow. So I suppose the question, Allan is, how do you do that? You can't ring, Nic. I suppose you could ring Nichola.
Nichola Garde
And he does. Call me yesterday. So don't say it's a one way relationship? He does.
Allan MacKillop
Yes and when I call her, it's usually to say, look, this is going to happen before you jump off the edge. And this is why this is why is going to happen.
Simon Minty
One second, I think both of you, I obviously know Nick a little bit better. But there are certain people that can give you energy as well. So when you speak to them, they sort of restore your faith, and you can get back on the horse and carry on again. So if you are both doing that internally, and maybe that is part of your answer, Phil, I'm answering for people that it's you find your ally, you find your support?
Allan MacKillop
I mean that I mean, the serious answer is, I've got a number of allies as well I can rely on and I think when you do have an ally in the BBC, they generally are very supportive as compared to other organizations, all these roles can be quite lonely. I think both of us now have got kind of networks that will maybe two or three people that we can speak to, should we get stuck with something or get blocked on something that's the biggest bugbear or because you know, it's been blocked from progressing something.
Phil Friend
Yeah. And when you feel so passionate, and then it doesn't happen because somebody decides, there isn't a budget or they don't agree with you or something. That's painful, isn't it? Because if you don't care, well, they need to say fair enough. But you do care. So it's
Nichola Garde
it's something that just tried to answer that the BBC did actually, which I did think was brilliant. When I first started this, they gave me a mentor. And she's disabled. And she's a commissioning editor. And that has been incredible, to be honest. And that Matt, I don't know whether it was by accident or how thought through it was, but it was a really good match, in terms of, you know, both advice around career but just about because she has that lived experience of disability as well. You know, I can share things with her that I wouldn't necessarily with other colleagues,
Announcer
you're listening to The Way We Rollwas Simon Minty and Phil Friend,
Simon Minty
I'm gonna ask an impossible question. I'm really struck by your pan industry, stuff that people are sharing. I really like that. I also like it within when you start coming competitive with each other, and you start kind of drawn out to each other with better shows or programs. But I'm trying to be quite specific, if you could pick two from this list of things that you think have really changed within the industry, the opportunities and representation of disabled people. So would it be like employment schemes or just individual trailblazers, we might be talking some of those external pressure. Is it the law? Is it things like the pandemic and George Floyd in the US? Or its the time, this is the time so what the couple of real motivators or changes,
Allan MacKillop
I think, just from my perspective is is obviously because it's more a kind of pan legislative role, I do it is the law, the employment schemes, you know, I think the evolution of that, because if your organization, regardless of having a target, so effectively, counts, staff, and tries to illustrate where staff sit within the kind of makeup of the organization, then it helps to have a number of strong employment schemes where you're bringing staff in, and you're then helping develop them thereafter. Because that pathway, in line with the opportunity, that Equality Act provides is a major step forward.
Nichola Garde
I think it's a bit of everything. So I think employment schemes are great if we are truly committed to them. And we've truly committed to tracking the retention, and the talent beyond the scheme. And I think that has been a shift I think, you know, most disabled people roll their eyes if we introduce the word "scheme", but actually, if we can prove that it's just that's the step up and then we continue to track and progress. I think that's where schemes work. I think individual Trailblazers are amazing I think Liz Carr in Silent Witness our recent you know Rose on Strictly I think that you know what that has done for society and for our audience you know, for our audience to see that and our disabled audience to see that and I definitely didn't see I think that's has a massive impact and I think I can't remember the stat but you know, in terms of people that are signing on to do BSL now it's gone through the roof hasn't it? Which is amazing. And then I think the pandemic for me experience in terms of you know, working with freelancers, I think the pandemic has taught us about flexible working, you know, when I the one of the reasons I left television was the long hours and having to go to the office every day and becoming a parent. So that intersection of being disabled and a mum. And I think the pandemic has taught us all, you know that we can work from home. And it doesn't affect production, and it doesn't affect deadlines. And whereas before the pandemic, I felt in the industry, there was a real slim, there was hardly any possibility of ever being offered the chance to work from home, particularly in production roles,
Allan MacKillop
The important thing is that the optimum solution after the pandemic will always be a balance of hybrid in terms of offering both, you know, working from home and being in the office. Because when we analyzed our workforce, during the two years who were kind of stuck in this limbo situation, there were a were a number of people that developed emotional wellbeing issues they are uneasy. I've been away from their team. So you have to find a bit of a balance there between the pragmatics of it, you know, as well,
Nichola Garde
but I think is asking the question, because I made that presumption, we had a researcher who was a wheelchair user, and I just made a terrible assumption that it must be a lot easier for her to work from home than go to an inaccessible production office. And actually she like, you know what, no, because I'm finding it really lonely at home. And I would like so so Allan's absolutely right. It's but but we were never asked a question before, it was just you must work in a building. So I think that's about just asking that question now,
Allan MacKillop
I think aware that kind of like, ah, made line managers a little bit more aware. That's the key here, because a lot of that pressure of not been asked came from line managers, almost forcing their staff to either come in every day,
Phil Friend
I was just going back to something you said, Nichola, about. Rosie you know, the sort of Trailblazer bit? Has there been any tracking done? I'd love to know if there's been any tracking done, to look at how the talent you've been bringing in and developing is actually affecting programme content. So somebody must have thought somewhere, that having a deaf woman dance on Strictly was a good idea, and how right they were, I'd love to think it was a deaf person working in BBC somewhere or other. These things are so subtle, aren't they that the more voices in a room with programme ideas is going to lead to better programmes. Has there been any auditing of this stuff that we could hold up and say, there you are, this is true.
Nichola Garde
I think they're beginning to track I think what I alluded to earlier around what the effects Rose has had in terms of the uptake of BSL, there's a big percentage of people that have engaged. And I think the thing about Rose, which I thought was really interesting is the decision that was made. And I know that was part of the disability team, and Strictly production working together around the fact that her BSL interpreter was going to be visible, and that we would see them at all times. And that so that we wouldn't hide away from that representation. And that, for me was a really big step. I think that you know, that had a really big influence on the way representation happens in shows like that. Yeah,
Simon Minty
I love your point, Phil, the idea that there's someone who has some sort of disability or deafness or neurodivergence, long term health condition, who's in the room that allows that to pop up the flip side of that I this week, I worked with an ad agency, and I worked with a comedy writer. And I was basically given them permission. I said, you're really good at what you do. I want you to apply that you fear to disability, you've shied away from it. But using your creative minds and brilliance we could do stuff here. So it might be the individual or it might be just suddenly there's permission for people to think differently.
Phil Friend
Yeah, I suppose it when I worked with the BBC, one of my challenges was why don't they show camera angles on Top Gear between the dashboard and the steering wheel? Because then you don't have to talk about hand controls, I can look at the picture and know that I can drive that car. It's that subtle. And I'm, I'm thinking no one who drives cars with hand controls is going to think about if they don't do it, it's got to be you know, I'm just fascinated at the journey. The you know, the BBC has been on, can we just move across a bit here? Because one of the biggest challenges I know you both face in, in the BBC context, is social media, live streaming, that kind of stuff? Where does that kind of leave disability in that talent thing?
Nichola Garde
I was recently in a meeting actually around this in terms of if we're talking about streamers, like Netflix and Apple and Amazon. And what we're then looking at BBC iPlayer. And something that Netflix does is I'm not very technical a Simon knows, but you know, if you're watching a program, then suggest what you might want to watch afterwards. So it includes disability. And we've been recently talking to iPlayer around can we make that happen in a way that if you've got an interest in disability, it will then show you what the program's and then can we make that happen incidentally, because I think another thing that Netflix do is they can pick up a picture of character, and if and show, you know, see that you're interested in that picture. So it's around that a little bit as well. So, for instance, if you see a disabled character in a production, and you're interested in that person, as an actor, can you then follow them, and their journey, by the way that you absorb programs and watch programs and your content? So I think there's definitely conversations being had. And then also, do we have, you know, like, like, I guess, Black History Month and on iPlayer, they, they made a kind of moment of that, and you could go there for content? Do we have that with disability? And there's, there's people that say, well, it should just be internet, it should just be there, we shouldn't have to have an event or a season. But if there was a space that you could go to to find those programs, where representation was positive, particularly, I think, for young children as well, then could IPlayer accommodate that as well?
Allan MacKillop
I think from my perspective, looking at it more from an accessiblity view, I'm always more conscious that however the technology advances, that accessibility is maintained throughout, because we got a lot of issues, perhaps, you know, people were seeing all this new programs come online, but I can't watch it can't hear. I can't get the options on it. So it's important with all this new, I think some of the ideas are very clever, but we must ensure that the audience is able to, to view that or take part in that is as much as possible that we don't, we don't delude any of accessible ailments that we've worked hard to create and mainstream programming.
Simon Minty
We amazingly, I don't often do this, but we're running short of time. I want to ask one more question, Phil might have one. And it's a lovely one I do in some of my board meetings. When I say my board meeting, I attend them, but this is a question we asked people. And it's, if you if I gave you a magic wand, and you can have three things, what would they be in relation to this topic? Now you winced Allan, I'm gonna give you a few more minutes to think about it, Nick, three things, magic wand, whatever you want.
Nichola Garde
So, access, so all production facilities should be accessible, there's so many post production facilities that are not accessible. So therefore, we should just stop using them as suppliers. And then they probably would make themselves accessible a bit quicker, presumably, presumptions. So the presumption around hiring disabled talent that it might cost more might be more, you know, it might take longer. Or it might be awkward. So you know, let's move on and find a non disabled AP or researcher, because that'll just be quicker and easier, we won't have to have those conversations. And joy, just more joy when we talk about disability not constantly talking about the issues. And I know, Allan's gonna say we absolutely, of course, we have some issues in order to get to the joy. But I just think it's really, it'd be nice to just celebrate a little bit more about what we're doing, and who we're working with, and kind of Elevate, see what I did there? that talent and that kind of you know, and just just speak a bit more around it with positivity and joy, rather than Oh, no, we've got another issue that we need to solve.
Allan MacKillop
I would agree with all about what I would add to it is if I was waving my magic wand is I would want unlimited smooth, smooth funding streams that people can access instantaneously. And there's no, not a huge rigmarole to get funding for adjustments. I'd want more composite streamline recruitment processes that are less, you know, daunting, less hit or miss you know, because even with all the good things we've tried to implement, you still hear many stories across industry in general of people have had bad experiences of trying to, you know, recruited into organizations. So I'd kind of want to hear more of a standard their. And I'm better better funded for everything..
Phil Friend
I suppose the point just to add I don't think it's a question I have it but it's more of a kind of acknowledgement that. From what you've been sharing with us today, it feels like the BBC is yet again, pioneering things, developing systems or ways of approaching an issue like disability in a creative and sort of exciting way. The big challenges, I guess, is around social media and the live streaming stuff because they're setting some very high standards too, aren't they? And Allan's point about accessibility is is well made, you know, that's one of the big challenges. They've got
I want to say Channel Four quite good and ITV. They're all this is not just the preserve of the BBC,
Nichola Garde
ITV and Channel Four doing things, you know, for me, I'm really I've always loved Channel Four and I think they take big risks, which come off on screen. I think they're really good on screen in terms of what they do. Around the advert campaigns and things like that, and I think we're all working to the same challenges with off screen. And the same, you know, creative diversity network stats that we need to increase and, and, you know, but and then the ITV are doing some really lovely things. I love the the, the bits in between the programming and adverts and, you know, I think yesterday I saw three adverts on the run that we're all kind of addressing diversity in a really subtle representational way. And they've got brilliant, Sam Tatlow there and they've Ali Castle, and I think, you know, we're all I think we've all trying to work together, but also with that healthy competitiveness to try and and we've also got different briefs, the BBC can't do things the same way Channel Four do it. And we can't do it the same way ITV do it.
Allan MacKillop
I think I think each broadcasters got a different niche in the market. And they'll work to that, particularly with Channel Four, or some of the great risks that they're able to take. And that's absolutely fine. I mean, that's all good. But back to the BBC point is that it probably doesn't get the credit that it deserves for what it's trying to do what's always tried to do, you know, and that's, and we don't actually say what we do, we do perform we're doing, we don't have to actually have time, often, to stand back and celebrate what we've achieved, because when you're in the heat of it's difficult to do, it's almost feels like one step forward and one step back.
Nichola Garde
And I think when you're trying to do it around a conversation to do with the license fee, you know, when you're trying to do it in an arena, where the licence fee is on, you know, is out there. And I think that's really difficult because you want to take risks, and you want to do things. But you're also very aware of this kind of looming conversation around licence fee and what the BBC does and its values and what we're there for,
Phil Friend
I would stand by what I said, I think Extend and Elevate are examples of schemes that were incredibly and are very innovative. It's not denying what other other organizations are doing. But I think what.. Extend was around years ago, that was long before anybody else was thinking about. It's that kind of thing. I was trying to highlight really the inventiveness of the organization to do that. But it's been fabulous talking to you both. It's great to touch base with you again. So thank you very much for your time, Simon.
Simon Minty
I do agree with you Phil as well, there's and maybe it's hinting at what Allan and Nichola said, because you're the BBC, we expect this is almost an expectation. So when you're doing it, we're not quite celebrating it enough. Or we're not saying this is great. And then, since then, when someone else does it, you're like, oh, it's amazing. They've done it. But it's you guys who might have even led the way but, but that's part of the remit. And that's part of who you are, and what the BBC is about. So a small celebration, thank you so much for what you do. We know you do it amongst teams, and there's lots of other people involved. But it is nice to have a conversation where we're not just banging on about the gaps and the issues. And we started at the beginning with some really positive examples. And it feels like they're increasing. So let's hope this golden moment, this window of opportunity stays open for a long time. It will do with you two there. So thank you.
Nichola Garde
Thanks for having us. Thanks for having us. I've been dying. I've been waiting for Simon to ask me for years. So I've been dying to come on here.
Simon Minty
But Phil said, We've got to get the BBC on
Allan MacKillop
Scraping the bottom of the barrel again are we boys?
Simon Minty
It was the listener it was hard getting both of you at the same place at the same time. Thank you. Yeah, it's been lovely to speak to you both. Yeah, take it easy.
Nichola Garde
Thank you
Phil Friend
That was really interesting so nice to see them both. But my goodness me have they got jobs. Their jobs are real awesome, aren't they? They've got so much to do.
Simon Minty
And I loved seeing them both. I really like and respect both of them its lovely that there's disabled people doing this work. I mean, means you and I'm going to bloomin work anymore.
Phil Friend
Yeh my consultancy's gone bust but well done.
Simon Minty
We're doing the ideas that you gave us. I remember doing it. But no, I just love that it's happening. I think you're right there jobs have got some real bite and responsibility in there. And we got the good stuff. But I imagine there's some difficult times.
Phil Friend
Yeah. And I think it's always difficult to be the in a sense the lone person, isn't it? However good the job exciting and so on Yeah, no, really good. I hope. I hope our listeners find it as enjoyable as we did.
Simon Minty
Well and we covered a lot and especially there's some really nice ideas if you're looking to get in or learning about negotiation and how you do it. And I'm not going to underestimate it. Nic said a couple of things about bit about we can get battered by the micro aggressions, but we need to maintain some joy and enthusiasm as well because that's infectious. Now, you may think we've been a bit erratic and our apologies. It has been a bit erratic. We missed one or we will not be doing a show for June but we will be Back at the end of July with the Squeaky Wheel, if you've not come across the Squeaky Wheel, it's a website. It's a satirical website bit like the onion but all disability, have a look now it will make you laugh a lot. And we've got Stephen, who is the founder and one of the writers. I'm really looking forward to it.
Phil Friend
Yeah, it's a good show to do given the break we're having. But yeah, look forward to that. So if you want to contact us, we are available of course we are in the usual places. But just to remind you, our email address is mintyandfriend@gmail.com.
Simon Minty
You know what well done I'd forgotten what it was, I'm so glad you're here. Yeah, and as Phil said, on all social media, and we have a beacon page, which has lots of links to YouTube mailing list or other stuff. Thank you for listening to the end if you've made it and thank you for all your support. We hope you enjoyed the show.
Phil Friend
Yep, take it steady everybody and see you soon. Cheers.
Announcer
This isThe Way We Roll presented by Simon minty and Phil Friend. You can email us at mintyandfriend@gmail.com or just search for minty and friend on social media. We're on Facebook, Twitter and LinkedIn.
Transcribed by https://otter.ai