When is the word ‘vulnerable’ the right word? Plus celebrating Lenny Rush

A bumper show this month. There’s an underlying theme around the erosion or optionality of including disabled people. 

What do you do when you’re hotel room isn’t ready…especially when you return to the hotel after a night out at midnight and find out? Move to another room? Not so simple if you’re a wheelchair user. Kat Watkins had this happen to her, and we explore what coulda shoulda happened. 

Did you know there are new consumer duties which may assist differently disabled people (beyond Phil’s favourite group being learning disabled people who fill in forms). 

Simon and Phil have noticed the word ‘vulnerable’ is creeping back into the language to describe disabled people. Used without context or explanation, as in, ‘financially vulnerable’ or ‘vulnerable to exclusion’, the use of the word feels patronising and retrograde. Is it linked to Covid when lots of people were vulnerable? Is it broader, a moral driver of ‘being kind’? The issue is the word is disempowering, and inclusion isn’t optional nor a favour. There are legal duties underpinning this, as well as a moral imperative. 

More happily, we enjoy the success Lenny Rush is experiencing. A British actor with dwarfism, only 14 years old, he is absolutely storming it. We ask, was Peter Dinklage in Game of Thrones a watershed moment?   

Links

Disabled woman forced to sleep in hotel dining area ‘after the booked room was unavailable’

Disability and Vulnerability paper 

New Consumer Duty.  

Speech introducing a new duty

Best Bits of Am I Being Unreasonable with Daisy Cooper and Lenny Rush

Lenny Rush BAFTA acceptance speech 

Transcript

Simon: 0:24

Hello and welcome to the Way We Roll with me, Simon Minty.

Phil: 0:28

Me, Phil, Friend

Simon: 0:30

How the devil are you, Mr. Friend?

Phil: 0:32

I've got a burnt nose.

Simon: 0:33

Sun Bathing

Phil: 0:33

I have got, I've got a burnt nose. I made the criminal mistake of falling asleep in the garden yesterday with the sun beating down. I should know better. So I've got a little bit of a red hooter. I think otherwise I'm in good fettle. Mr. Minty

Simon: 0:50

That's very lovely though. Falling asleep in the gardens, kind of one of the

Phil: 0:53

Yes.

Simon: 0:53

pleasurable things to do in life, isn't it?

Phil: 0:55

Well, it is a bit, but then you wake up all of a whatever and think, oh God,

Simon: 1:00

I.

Phil: 1:01

I'm getting old I never used to fall asleep in my garden when I was 30.

Simon: 1:05

No, you were hungover

Phil: 1:06

Yes. Mind you, I don't think I had a garden when I was 30. So how are you anyway, look, how are you? I haven't asked you how you are.

Simon: 1:15

I am pretty good too. Thank you very much. Very well. And your sun story. I was with the Dwarf Sports Association of the UK

Phil: 1:25

Yes.

Simon: 1:26

this weekend and we were all sitting watching the football on the Sunday and I had my sunscreen or sun cream and I offered it to about eight, nine people and none of them took it. And then they all laughed at me.

Phil: 1:40

why didn't they take it?

Simon: 1:41

I don't know. It was like, I was like, you need a little bit. They like, oh, no, no. Then I started putting it on and I was standing up and two or three of people were sitting down there and you know, when you spray it, wind kept blowing. So it was hitting these two poor girls, or two women and they were like, oh my God. Anyway, I was slapping it on. There's no way I'm sitting, I just get a red face

Phil: 2:04

But this is a serious issue actually, isn't it

Simon: 2:06

Oh.

Phil: 2:07

Because people get skin cancers and stuff, and we ought to be more sensible about making sure we don't get burnt. I mean, I'm saying that with the red nose, you know?

Simon: 2:18

I always think it's very deceptive. Glad we turned this into some sort of public service show, but it's, the day wasn't bright sunshine, but that's when it's deceptive. That's when you get it. It was definitely hot. I could feel the heat

Phil: 2:30

Can't you tell us how you got on, by the way, how did you get on? You were doing shooting, weren't you? You're a bit of a shooter.

Simon: 2:36

Let's crack on with the show, shall we? It was terrible. I have medalled in this before and I had four brilliant shots and they went just where I want them to go. And one was banging the middle of these tiny targets. Oh yeah, I was rifle shooting. And then, and then the fifth one didn't even hit the target. I mean, there's a board that's completely rounded that supports it and it hit that. And the next five did as well. I believe I must have knocked the sight.

Phil: 3:07

no. It was sabotage. Other competitors. They got to your gun, didn't they?

Simon: 3:12

Someone very cleverly said, cuz you got four good ones. The adrenaline started building up and put you off your stride and you got overexcited.

Phil: 3:20

Ah,

Simon: 3:21

That's what these officials

Phil: 3:22

is there gonna be an inquiry? Have you lodged an official complaint tampering with me weapon

Simon: 3:29

Tom, Tim and Michael are three of the people who are involved in the organization, and they were so busy and so lovely, and they do such an amazing job. The idea that I was go and complain

Phil: 3:40

You took pity on them.

Simon: 3:42

Yeah. All right. This

Phil: 3:43

I do. I do. I, I do. I mean, it's interesting, isn't it? Cuz I know you pretty well and I never really see you in a hugely competitive. Do you know what I mean? But I bet when you get behind the rifle sights, you are a deadly, deadly competitor.

Simon: 4:01

I was immensely frustrated. Cause it didn't make sense to me. There's no way I can have four great shots and then the next six are not even close and, and you haven't got time to recover. Cuz the first one I thought, oh, that's an anomaly. There's something weird there. Then the next one, and then if you start trying to adjust, but you can't shoot a rifle where you are aiming six inches away from where you're meant to be shooting. And you know, you don't get practice shots, not in competition. That's it. I'm done.

Phil: 4:29

Maybe, maybe you are the sort of character from the Matrix. You know, you bend bullets around things. Well, I'm sorry that you failed to medal Simon. This is most unlike you. You normally come back with a gong, a trophy, which we then have to listen to for weeks. I remember the broadcast with, was it Tanny? Oh, Ellie Simmons. Yeah. Ellie Simmons. Yeah. Oh, I wonder how Ellie's doing. Anyway, shall we move on Mr. Minty?

Simon: 4:54

Um, We have four topics for you dear listener, and the first one is with you, Mr. Friend, disabled woman, forced to sleep in the hotel dining area.

Phil: 5:06

Yes. In brief, a woman with her support worker booked accommodation at a travel lodge and turned up to find the room was not available to her, and she was told that the reason for that was that it. It wasn't, it wasn't, I dunno, quite why, but it came out later that the excuse was that it hadn't been cleaned, therefore she couldn't use it. They did their best to try and say, well, we'll send you somewhere else and we'll do whatever and whatever. None of which worked. And so this woman and her support worker ended up sleeping on a sofa in the sort of hotel area. It should be said by by the way that she uses Breathing apparatus, a respirator at night. So this was not kind of just a bit like me and you, Simon, sort of muddle through somehow. This, this individual was very severely disabled. Now, I think the two things that come out, of this story for me, one is very well described in the article about the steps they went to the receptionist sounds like she did everything she could, but it was beyond her. She couldn't sort out the issues. I e the hotel they tried to book as well was full, they didn't have any accessible rooms. So I'm not holding, you know, it's one of those things where the individual is doing their best, but they can't solve the problem. I think what triggered in me when I read this, and I'd be really interested in your view, was what's happened to us in our time? Hotels, what are our hotel stories, because this has been going on for years. The unreliability, we're still finding it impossible to just take it for granted that when somebody says a hotel is accessible, it is, you know?

Simon: 7:04

Yes, I, I'd, I'd add a little bit more. I mean the, the article's in the Guardian isn't it? And the woman's name is Kat Watkins. The be the first one really made me laugh. A disabled wheelchair user, I thought, yeah, you only needed one of them. You didn't need disabled and wheelchair user. It's probably but I couldn't get my, this, the woman cat who is a UN convention on the rights of disabled people development officer

Phil: 7:30

They really picked the right person. didn't they?

Simon: 7:32

Uh, disability Wales.

Phil: 7:34

Yeah.

Simon: 7:35

I didn't, I mean, it, it basically, the article says how she planned this and she was going to a gig. Every step was meticulous planned using public transport, taxi tube, station, all this stuff. And because the hotel she booked, which she'd stayed at before, wasn't there. She couldn't just transfer her to another one because that screwed up the whole plans. And it was only when she, when she booked, checked in and it was okay. And then she got back up at 12:30 at night and they said she couldn't go to the room. And I, the idea that it wasn't cleaned, I can't work that out unless

Phil: 8:10

Shortage of staff. We know the industry is going through a difficult time because of, you know, the lack of staff and so on. So I assume when I read that, that the reason behind the lack of cleaning was probably because they didn't have the staff.

Simon: 8:25

So I'm doing consultancy, disability consultancy hats on. We are advising Travel Lodge. The first rooms you do clean are the accessible ones because all your other patrons probably can jump about and move different rooms. But your client who uses the accessible room, that is the only room they can use. They offered her other rooms, the family room or something else, but she couldn't get wheelchair, she couldn't use the bathroom. So I, I, I don't, you're right. The individual on the checkout or a check-in isn't necessary to blame, but the, there's a failing in the system that all the other rooms presumably were cleaned and they didn't do the accessible room.

Phil: 8:58

I mean the, the hotel chain at the end of this, when. Apologized profusely. I've given her vouchers and stuff like that, but they went on to say that the mistake they made was not phoning her or letting her know that this was a problem and before she'd even set off and they could have done that. We live in an age, for goodness sake, where we got communications coming outta her ears.

Simon: 9:21

I went to the Edinburgh Fringe Festival a few years ago and one of the venues had a platform lift to get into and because I'd said I was a disabled person on the booking couple of hours before the show I got a text message saying, we wanna let you know that the lift's broken. You're still welcome. We can help, but we wanna, if you don't wanna come or if it's not gonna work for you, then let us know. And I was like, that's cool. And that is perfectly possible. Um,

Phil: 9:48

These things happen, don't they? I suppose the other thing is why isn't there another option? That's one. I, I can remember driving, I was running a course when I was back in the day when you and I worked together and I went down to Hampshire to do a course, arrived at the accommodation to find, I couldn't even get through the door of the accessible room. And so, so they took the door off. Which I thought was really smart. So they sent me off. I, I couldn't get through the room, went back to reception and said, look, this is hopeless. I can't get in the room at all, let alone, and they said, oh, well have a drink and we'll sort some. So I was then told they'd taken the door off.

Simon: 10:30

Was that not annoying in the middle of the night when people kept wandering into room and stuff?

Phil: 10:33

I went? Back to the room. Sure enough I could get in now, I still couldn't use the bathroom. Because that door was narrow, so I said, just as a matter of interest, are you asking me to sleep in this room with no door on it? Just to, you know, just a matter of, oh yeah, hadn't really thought about that.

Simon: 10:53

It could have put some beads or something. You know, those little beads you swipe through. That would've been great.

Phil: 10:58

Or I'd have had two Securicor people standing outside the room with rifles. You know, like you, you could

Simon: 11:04

I yeah, you're right. In our time I have turned up to places, you know, like the check-ins up seven steps and there's no alternative. And it is remarkable to people's different senses of what accessible is the thing for me in this story Premier Inn Travel Lodge, all of those I like, cuz you know what you're getting.

Phil: 11:26

You do.

Simon: 11:27

They are accessible, they are routine. We know the boutique beautiful hotels that I'd love to stay in is too much of a gamble because I dunno whether I'm gonna be able to use it. So I would use the budget hotels because I know they set standards or Holiday Inn, all those intercontinental, that group. Brilliant. So I, I'm. I'm curious. There clearly was failings along the way. I feel for her. I mean, Kat did get to the gig. She got to see the, the artists that she wanted to see, but it was this, she's

Phil: 11:57

It took the energy out of it though, didn't it? She felt it.

Simon: 12:01

And.

Phil: 12:01

mean, I. You know, we are living in an age where disabled people are being encouraged and rightly so, and are grasping every opportunity with both hands. So she has a respirator 15, 20 years ago, she wouldn't have had one of those. That means she couldn't have gone away. She probably couldn't have slept in rooms. Now she's got all the kit to get her independent, but she's let down by the room. You know, it's kind. And I suppose just as, as an aside, free consultancy from Minty and Friend it would be, it would be so lovely to see photographs shown on brochures or websites, which show the accessible room so that you can work out how it works for you. Typical example, I'm thinking about whether to try and use rooms with a bath and a bath board rather than trying to transfer onto a shower chair in a wet room, because I'm finding that really quite difficult. So I'm going up to Liverpool to see my son in. Later in the year we booked the hotel. It is a Premier Inn. They've sent photographs. It's on the website showing the two rooms, one with the wet room, one with the bath, and I was looking at it with Sue and I could see the grab rails, I'm think. Hmm. I'm not sure a bar board would fit across that, but there is the platform at the end. I could sit on that. There's a curtain wrapped. You know, I looked at the room and I thought, I can do this. You know, I could work this out. Without that photo, I wouldn't have a clue. Why don't they give us more information on their websites and stuff about the availability and what the rooms look like?

Simon: 13:35

I'd like to see photos of people cleaning the accessible rooms.

Phil: 13:38

That would be nice for Kat

Simon: 13:39

yeah,

Phil: 13:39

She would've appreciated that.

Simon: 13:41

I went to the Business Disability Forum awards. They award different companies, organizations, and individuals were doing great stuff around disability. One of the winners was a chap from the Marsham Court Hotel, which is in Bournemouth. And this is an independent hotel that they have done so much to make it accessible, including they've got a swimming pool. Is it hoist where you can be lowered into the. And the chap came over and started chatting to me, and I had nice chat with him, and after 10 minutes I had to go. I said, why have you done this? Because I don't, I didn't sense legal. And you know what the answer was? He had a family member who needed it. They realized they weren't good, and that's what they've done. He said, we started with a budget of 70,000. We have spent considerably more than that. But everywhere is what it should be. Cutting a long story short, I've got four days off and I've booked to go there and I'm gonna check it all out. So I mean, the bit which I'm really excited about, one is Bourmouth and I'd be at Bourmouth. Beautiful. Two, they are promised that they're really going for it and they're independent. So there, there's good stuff. When I booked, they said all our accessible rooms are booked out, where they're all gone. They said, we think this room will be good for you. And then they sent me a whole load of photos.

Phil: 15:03

That's what you need. Then you can make the decision. And that's, I think, what I need. You know, I'm used to, I can tell by looking at things, whether it's, I mean, I can, well, I won't always get it right, but I can, it's not their fault if they've sent me all the information I.

Simon: 15:17

Plus, Sometimes, you know, it depends on our impairment and where we're at, but sometimes I might be able to put up with, I prefer a bath rather than the shower because they've given me a little balcony that overlooks the sea and I'm like, alright, I'll sit down and do the shower for three days rather than the bath. That helps me more physically. So if we do know, then we can make the decision. And even when it's imperfect, you know, we, we are forewarned.

Phil: 15:45

Well, so. Good luck to Cat. I say I'm sorry to hear about it.

Simon: 15:59

topic is, and maybe this is me, but over the last few weeks I've noticed this word vulnerable, creeping back into

Phil: 16:07

you wash your mouth out with soap please?

Simon: 16:09

Now I wonder whether it's, cuz it crept back in during covid times when I've challenged people. I've heard the phrase, oh, not vulnerable, like disabled people. I've just vulnerable. It could be financially vulnerable. Or vulnerable because they could be, sometimes we're excluded or we are left behind. So it's not necessarily a sense of physically vulnerable, but if, if I see the word, and particularly for those vulnerable people or those vulnerable disabled people, I don't see the nuance. And I, and I'm saying, well, if you, if you say particularly for disabled people who are financially vulnerable, Lovely, fine with that, or particularly for disabled people who can be, you know, vulnerable to be excluded sometimes I'm fine. It's just this, I'm hearing it a bit too often and it reminds me of this sort of pity stuff. It also knocks out my validity as a, a customer, a consumer, or an employee friend, all of those things. It, it just lowers me, I think. Is it just me who's seeing this or have you noticed it?

Phil: 17:19

Well, no, it isn't just you. And I've I get quite exercised when I hear it cuz I nearly always hear it as a vulnerable people. Vulnerable disabled people, I don't get context. And we are gonna talk in a minute about some new regulation. And in those regulations they use the term vulnerable. So I think I, I always go back to this conversation. I'm a very brief conversation I had with a, a man who was a rugby player, big rugby player, massive bloke. And he said, we were talking about vulnerable. I don't know how it came up now, but it did. And he said, if you walk in here with a 12 bore shotgun, I feel vulnerable. And I've always remembered him saying that because it points to what you just said, it's the context that we need to have, identify what is it about this situation that makes this individual vulnerable and therefore we need to take steps to help and that need not be disability. It could be simply not having the knowledge to fill out the form, which makes you vulnerable because you are not getting your rights, or you are not getting the discount, or you're not, you know, you know what I mean? So, describing someone as vulnerable isn't quite the same as describing the situation that they're finding themselves in, putting them at a disadvantage in some way.

Simon: 18:45

I think what might be going on, if we pull up the old three arguments of why you might include disabled people, as if you need reasons. One of them was legal, one of them was moral, and one of them was financial. And I think people have forgotten about the law or just don't think about it as in, oh, they're nervous of it whatever. So it doesn't get acknowledged business isn't quite there right now, and I think what's happening is people think this is moral. They're trying, they do. They're being kind. We're being a friend to vulnerable people and so they're doing it morally. Now that isn't my position of morality by, cuz I feel sorry for you. That's charity pity, tragedy model. And it's so disempowering, it's so frustrating. So, and I've seen this in a couple of places where I'm starting to ramp up the law again. This isn't you doing me a favour, you have an obligation. You have a, a legal duty to do these things, and that is because I have rights and I'm a citizen and I'm a human being and all the other things. So this, the vulnerable part is not you being kind, so. I don't mind if you're kind and you're really great at customer service or you're really great at including all, that's lovely, but you're doing it cuz you should do it and you're doing it cuz you want my custom. So treat me as you would other people. Don't put me in the the vulnerable category, even if you think I am, and even if I am financially vulnerable or even if I am likely to be left out, there's the legal duty of doing what you're supposed to be doing as well.

Phil: 20:20

See, when you and I back in those days, those heady days where we used to work together, I became very, and I, I'm not claiming individual credit for this. I'm just saying that it became part of what you and I, and I think we were amongst the first to talk about this. It was identified special needs as in the same camp as vulnerable. Everybody's got special needs. Everybody's special. Why do we single disabled people out? In fact, it was primarily used in the education area, special schools and stuff, and we talked about additional needs. This person's just as special as everybody else, but they may have additional requirements that we need to think about. So, vulnerable is in this group now it's kind of saying we kind of get what you're on about, but actually what you are, what you're doing with the, the new regulations that we'll talk about in a second are designed to fix what wasn't fixed to start with i e they developed systems that certain groups of people can't use. Well, that was clever, wasn't it? Why would you develop systems that some people can't use? Oh dear. We better put that right. Well, let's label the group that can't deal with it vulnerable, and that gives our teams of people this group that they now design products and services around or do certain things to, to be supportive. Customers with learning disabilities have additional needs when it comes to filling in forms online. Potentially not all of them. So we design our forms to take account of the fact that many people might find form filling online difficult. We don't stick'em in another box, give'em a special form. That's back to saying you can't have a car, we'll give you an invalid carriage. It's not that different.

Simon: 22:15

I, yeah, you were the first person I ever met who said additional. Additional needs. And I hear that from time to time. I did a talk recently and a woman said, I have this and I have that, but I don't, you know, I don't want people treating me specially or whatever. And I said, But you do wanna be treated appropriately, don't you? And everyone went, oh, that's good appropriately. And I'm like, well, I didn't even think, you know, it came off the time. I didn't think twice about it because that's the same. It's like, well you need the appropriateness or whatever it is that's appropriate for you. You're right, you don't want the song and dance, but you do need whatever you need and that's appropriate. So yeah, I, I that I had another point while you're talking and it's just gone clear out in my mind and I'm really annoyed cause it was quite a zinger, but. Yeah, it'll come back to

Phil: 23:00

back, yeah, just whack it in

Simon: 23:02

tomorrow. Um,

Phil: 23:03

Yes, gimme a call.

Simon: 23:05

so yeah, I'm just trying to watch this sort of, it, it's the, the optionality of making adjustments, the optionality of including disabled people. This worries me because that's what we were waiting for in the seventies and the eighties when we were waiting for people to be kind to the vulnerable people, not this is by right and as well as morally, everyone should be included.

Phil: 23:33

I think it's a kind of, you know, I. Would you use this term about yourself test?. You are gonna call me vulnerable. Can I call you it? And if I can't call you it, why can't I? It's sort of, it's, is it transportable? It might contextually, you know, if you are, if I've asked you to complete forms, but you live in an area where there's no wifi, for example, we talked about this on previous show. Does that make you vulnerable? Well, it, it kind of does because you can't fill the forms in, so you're gonna miss out. But is vulnerable the right word? I mean, excluded might be better.

Simon: 24:12

Absolutely. Absolutely. I did remember a little bit of it. I think it was when I was explaining my concern with the word vulnerable and the person was a woman. And I said, you know, I look at you and you are a woman, so you're clearly vulnerable and I need to do extra things for you. And I could see her bristle and I went, yeah, that's how I feel cuz I'm loading you with what I think. Now her walking home at midnight on her own. inverted commas is she vulnerable? Well, but again, it's because of idiots who will attack her, not her and herself. So

Phil: 24:44

She's a black belt karate and she's got a gun in her pocket. She probably doesn't feel that vulnerable. Maybe the assumption.

Simon: 24:51

The gun slightly worries me. She could be vulnerable to arrest

Phil: 24:54

yeah, absolutely. But the, I mean, there is something about packaging us all up into this group.

Simon: 25:04

So at the moment there's a lazy use of the word vulnerable, which is old fashioned and is retrograde, and it is disingenuous as well as disrespectful. It is, there's nothing wrong with if you add extras, so financially vulnerable or likely they're vulnerable to being excluded. That puts it in context, but just saying, we help vulnerable people. No, no, no, no.

Phil: 25:30

you went to a proper school. So when you are describing vulnerability, help me with doing the grammar here. Cause it actually matters because if I've become a noun instead of an adverb or an adjective or something, that's different, isn't it? If you are labeling me as something that's not the same as describing me in a situation, am I right about that? Is vulnerable in the context of I'm a vulnerable customer, have I become a noun?

Simon: 25:59

I, I don't know. It, it was a comprehensive nothing, nothing special. If you said the, I mean, what you're alluding to is, you know, the vulnerable the disabled,

Phil: 26:11

Well, it's not a million miles, is it? Because in, you know, I.

Simon: 26:15

it, it is that big and that there is a truism. I may not be the right people go okay, you are not vulnerable, Simon. Cuz you, you do have a mortgage and a property, or you do you know, you can tell people what your needs are or whatever. I may not be vulnerable in that sense, but it isn't just about, I've yet to meet someone who has a disability, who may be financially vulnerable or may be vulnerable to being excluded. Who still likes being called that? They, they still want the same respect as I do, so it's not whether they are in that group or not. It's about respecting them irregardless of what language you use to describe people. So,

Phil: 26:54

I think it's sort of okay, where we're talking about what we have to do to make all of our services, for example, accessible to everybody and using a word, like for example, there may be people who are vulnerable because they can't use the internet. And we are asking them to fill their forms in on the internet. So how are we gonna deal with that, that conversation I get cuz that makes perfect sense

Simon: 27:18

You are really into forms today, aren't you?

Phil: 27:20

Yeah.

Simon: 27:21

The third time you've mentioned forms and learning disabled people. I think you're slightly going down the, the dead end there.

Phil: 27:27

we are dealing with the digitally excluded, which is

Simon: 27:31

That was last month show

Phil: 27:32

I know, but it's, it hasn't gone away since we talked about it. It's

Simon: 27:35

Now once we talk about it, it is resolved. You must know that

Phil: 27:39

Just move on

Simon: 27:41

people sit up and listen.

Phil: 27:50

this part of the conversation leads us on actually very neatly to our next topic, which I sent you some information and notes about. And actually I was surprised I hadn't heard of it. I, I was surprised that new regulations are coming in. And I hadn't heard anything about this. I came across it by pure accident and thought it might be helpful to shine a bit of a light on it because it does have implications for disabled people. And that is to do with changes in regulations. And let's be clear here. We're not talking about new laws, we're talking about existing laws, having regulations changed. To, to kind of bring them up to date or bring them up to speed or to fill gaps where things have clearly not been.

Simon: 28:41

They're calling it a duty, a consumer duty

Phil: 28:43

Yeah. New consumer duty, which is gonna start well, takes effect in the last bits of it, take effect in in July. And basically this is the financial services agency, which regulates financial organizations. Bringing in new regulations after a, a reasonably lengthy look at regulations and they've identified back to Simon's favorite word that there are some people, some customers, some individuals that may be vulnerable because the services and so on and so forth are not accessible to them or understandable to them or whatever. So let's just, I don't wanna get into huge, you know, but it might be worth just flagging up what the key kind of provisions of this are, and it does apply primarily to banks, insurance companies, and those sorts of things. Basically they must take all reasonable steps to ensure that the products and services they have meet the needs of their consumers. They must identify and assess the risks to consumers posed by their products and services. They must take steps to mitigate the risks to consumers. They must monitor effectiveness of their measures to mitigate those risks, and they have to be transparent about the risk consumers posed by their products and services. Consumer duty is obviously, it's a complex piece of legislation, et cetera, so here's the thing. In 1995, we passed laws called the Disability Discrimination Act. Now enshrined in the Equality Act

Simon: 30:22

Woo.

Phil: 30:22

Now that was 1995. That's 38 years ago. These regulations. no, 28 years ago. I'm, I'm sorry. This is you see, you, you went to comprehensive school and they taught you maths.

Simon: 30:38

Uh, Listen now just to say, when he said I, when he said the 95, I was trying to work out in my head, then he said 38 and he saw me suddenly counting on my fingers. I was thinking, wow. No, his 30th anniversary's coming up, isn't

Phil: 30:50

Yeah, but it's a long time ago.

Simon: 30:53

Oh boy. We were little boys.

Phil: 30:55

and in that, in that little bit of legislation, it talked about not discriminating against disabled people in service provision. And services are things like banking and you know, insurances and all that stuff. And I know it's a very technical area, and there were exclusions. There were always issues about what was reasonable in given circumstances. So in one sense, manufactured goods

Simon: 31:21

manafactured goods excluded.

Phil: 31:22

Absolutely. So the idea that you would in 2023 come along and tighten things up, didly, dah, but actually it kind of almost suggests to me they've done nothing about it in the 28 years or 59 years or whatever since.

Simon: 31:38

So, okay, that's perfect cuz your last line I was trying to work out, I read it and thought it was interesting in its own right, but I was like, why is Phil sent this to me? Cuz I could, there's another word, disability. It's, this is about everybody. And there's certain provisions around, you know, things that could do damage to people or harmful to people and stuff like that. And I'm thinking this feels very strange, but, so your essence of reading all this through is like, has this not already been done? And particularly around disability, it should have already been done. So were you surprised to read it?

Phil: 32:12

I was to one to some degree. Now, I, I did a little bit more digging and one of our, one of the people we've, we've talked about on this show before

Simon: 32:24

If it's Sophie Morgan again, you always talk about Sophie Morgan.

Phil: 32:29

I got told off at the weekend for telling friends that we were gonna have Sophie on the show, and she, she's really good woman. She's very attractive. And then just kept on, they kept on saying, can you please stop talking about Sophie Morgan?

Simon: 32:43

If I was Sue your wife, I would be having words with you.

Phil: 32:48

yeah, I would be too, actually, no. The person I'm referring to, Is Amanda Kirby, professor Amanda Kirby, who's big in the Neurodiverse area, and also

Simon: 33:01

We spoke about awkwardness last time, didn't we?

Phil: 33:04

we did, that's right. Now she's just put a piece up talking about this new the new regulations. But she gave one or two quite good examples of how now you are expected to do, for example, two factor authentication. You're supposed to, you have so much time to fill in a form, you have only certain amount of time to press enter, you know, da, da, da. People in the Neurodiverse communities may have all sorts of issues with that, and these regulations must take account of that. So you can see that there's gonna be some in, and I think the industry have clearly been talking about this now for months and months and months. They haven't just come, come out with these regulations, but it's that at that, Micro level, that's what it's gonna mean. That perhaps they've got to think much harder about people filling in stuff that they wanted to fill in. One

Simon: 33:59

Filling in forms again, is this filling

Phil: 34:01

all forms, small forms, financial, you know, money laundering, all of that stuff in. But there are people who find negotiating with this stuff really difficult. And we talked about on our last show, people being digitally excluded. They don't have wifi, they can't afford broadband. Whatever it is, how are they supposed to deal with the world, which is increasingly becoming digital? So that's what interested me and why I flagged it up.

Simon: 34:28

I think that we should call this the S M F F L law, which could be like the, the Sophie Morgan Form Filling law. And then you'd be really happy, wouldn't you? It covers every base. I, I like Professor Amanda Kirby for raising this and I think you are two factor authentication. I said that wrong is a great example and it's. It's beyond learning disabled or general, you know, dexterity me at my parents. This stress of you get a text, you dunno, what's coming, you've only got this amount of time. I've also noticed I don't know about you. I'm slightly digressing, listener. Normally I get my text messages on my computer as well as my phone. So when I need to put that number in, it comes in on my computer and it automatically puts the number in. I can't get that to happen at the moment on my computer. It almost feels like certain financial organizations. Only send it to your phone and then you've gotta transfer across. That bugs me. The point is the same. I can see now that some of this is quite distressing. So the security elements have almost surpassed the comfortable customer access requirements. I dunno if it's doing harm, but it is causing distress. I suppose that's the same.

Phil: 35:41

I mean, the classics that I remember with you and I when we were working together after DDA and all of that stuff were things like call centers refusing to deal with somebody cuz they said they were their carer and they didn't have the rights and so on, so they couldn't access bank accounts, all that kind of stuff. Now I know that's old hat. It still goes on, by the way. There are still issues around that. I think these regulations talk about that too. They're tightening things up. They're, they're, they're saying, look, if people have got, if we've got to find as an industry ways of validating that you are the carer but that's our problem, not yours. We have to sort that out.

Simon: 36:19

I, you said it twice and I'm gonna use it. So if we imagine the. Disability Discrimination Act, which came in in 1927, just about come up to the centenary. What's happened over time, which we refer to with the word vulnerable, is I think the bolts have become a bit loose and it's not as strong in some contexts, and I feel not only with this piece of legislation, but other things I'm talking about now, just tightening them again. Because the law is important. It stops this optionality, it stops this, oh, I didn't think of them. It, it's, it tighten up those nuts and bolts to make sure that it's as strong as it can be. And I do, I hate using the law as the first thing we always say, you keep it in your back pocket, but at the moment I'm feeling, I've gotta almost introduce it a bit earlier when I talk to people.

Phil: 37:10

Yes. It's not optional, so. You can't decide not to obey the law. It, you know, it's not optional. Well, maybe you can,

Simon: 37:19

Well, you can.

Phil: 37:20

But the, the, the thing is that, I suppose it's worth saying that back in the day when the 95 Act was around, we had the DRC the DRC was looking at all this stuff on a

Simon: 37:31

Disability Rights Commission.

Phil: 37:33

Yep. And they would bring cases and they would feature and they would kick up a fuss. And I think the Equality and Human Rights Commission. Has been slashed and burned budget wise, its resources have been cut. It has to police all, I'd say police with small P, all these things. So the spotlight seems not to really shine very brightly in some of these areas.

Simon: 37:57

Um, But then, you know, we can help and we can help shine that spotlight. And one bit, you, you are aware cuz you've helped me on this, but I'm speaking to the Equality and Human Rights Commission about a project because I feel some disabled people are being left out again. And, to, give them their credit, they replied really quickly and they've just sent me a chaser email saying, have you got any more on this? And I'm like, wow. So, At the moment, they're being great. Yeah, really pleased.

Phil: 38:24

Well, I think watch this space.

Simon: 38:26

oh

Phil: 38:27

Start suing the backs. No, it is regulations. So they've gotta apply. Get onto the FCA if you are concerned.

Simon: 38:34

You know what? When I'm gonna go to Sainsbury a bit later on today, I might take a lawyer with me.

Phil: 38:38

I think.

Simon: 38:39

I'm not going on my own anymore. I'm gonna have a film crew and a lawyer

Phil: 38:43

I think it's very good. and your goggle box sofa, you need to take that in, lie on it while you pontificate.

Simon: 38:50

A nice little story at the end. There is a young man called Lenny Rush. If you're international, you may not have come across him. Lenny Rush is an actor. He has a former dwarfism similar to mine. I don't think it's the same, but it's, it's a slightly different one. He's 14.

Phil: 39:10

Oh, brilliant.

Simon: 39:11

About three, four years ago, he started following me on Instagram or something like that. And I, I saw him and I thought, oh, he's cool. And he's a short bloke, so I like short people. They, you know, they're my, my people. And, and that was it. And then he wrote to me and said, I've seen you on Gogglebox. I think you're brilliant, yada, yada. And I thought, oh, cutesy lovely. Yeah,

Phil: 39:31

Love him even more.

Simon: 39:32

Oh yeah. Little bit of flattery Lenny won me over. He is now huge in the last few years he is popping up everywhere. He did a television show called Am I Being Unreasonable, which is written by the people who did This Country amazing. I can't remember her name.

Phil: 39:51

The brother, the cousin and brother. No, brother and sister combo.

Simon: 39:55

The point is he played the child of the, the lead, the mother, and

Phil: 40:01

That's right

Simon: 40:01

although he's short it was never referenced it, it was just the, the son and he was witty and sharp. He's just won a, won a BAFTA for this and he he beat Steven Merchant, who is notoriously six foot seven and Lenny's three foot ten. I mean, there's a joyous moment. He's popped up on Comic Relief. He's popping up everywhere. The thing that makes me happy and emotionally happy is I know two or three people who were very talented actors and they were short people they had dwarfism, and they chose not to go into the industry because they said I wouldn't get proper roles. It will always be about my height. And then we've got, there's two people actually, there's another woman called Fran Mills who's twenties and she's doing brilliant stuff as well. So we've got two actors who are storming it and it is nothing. It, of course, their height is part of it, but it's not part of the roles. It's sometimes it is, sometimes it isn't. They're just winning it on their, the skill and the talent and being themselves, and I, I don't know. I just adore it. You, you could argue there's a few too many people with dwarfism on TV right now

Phil: 41:07

Well, I was gonna say that it seems to me that it's all got a bit out of hand but do you think being serious, do you think, I mean, my abiding memory of huge success was, was Game of Thrones.

Simon: 41:22

Peter Dinklage

Phil: 41:23

Peter Dinklage as the, as the guy in that who again, was small, but that wasn't the point it was all about the family he came from and all that stuff. And then he went on to do the Bergerac film, didn't he? Cerrano de Bergerac where his smallness was not the big nose cuz the original character was Do you think, I mean, I'm asking the question really. Do you think that kick started some of this stuff? Because before that, as you say, my memory is of small people always being a bit comedic and whatever else.

Simon: 41:53

There's been lots of isolated incident. Peter Dinklage was in the Station Agent and that was a sort of seismic moment of film, which he played. There has been lots of individual incidents. I nearly said little there incidents where you thought, oh, that's a bit challenging, or that's changed the game a little bit i think you're right the Game of Thrones, Peter Dinklage was a threshold moment. Now it was fantasy and it was, you know, not real, but you are right. His character was complex. There was talk about being short, but there was also talk about him just being clever, being a drinker, a womanizer, a schema.

Phil: 42:29

At times very evil. Yeah. I mean, you know,

Simon: 42:32

But there is a joy

Phil: 42:33

very multifaceted.

Simon: 42:35

There's a joyous piece where he's in court among, in front of the king accused of murder, I think it is. And he does this impassioned speech about his height and how he's a monster and they've always wanted to kill him. This is nothing to do with what he's done. It's them finally getting what they want and you're like, oh my life, it's so powerful, so powerful. So, but the irony is, you're right. Here's the threshold. He was a tipping point. You could see there was more I. I, it is stupid for me to compare, but I do think the Lenny Rush being in a mainstream sitcom, BBC One, not being referenced about being short, that's huge in itself too, because it's real, by the way, I'm very cool with it being referenced, and I think sometimes the height stuff is totally relevant and you can bring it in, and whether it's funny or poignant or just incidental, that's all okay but yeah I, I think you're right maybe Peter was a tipping point

Phil: 43:31

Well, I think I was, as you were talking, I was also remembering because we mentioned her, but Ellie Simmons, who did an enormous amount to kind of bring small people to the fore. I mean, I know she was an athlete doing it through that route, but she also became a celebrity and did all sorts of other stuff, Ellie Simmons, on on Strictly, you know, all of that kind of thing.

Simon: 43:53

she's allowed me to wear a swimming costume without shame.

Phil: 43:57

Well, that's, well, that's a big achievement because before you were very, very ashamed.

Simon: 44:04

That's the title of the show.

Phil: 44:07

Yeah. Yeah No, but there are standout, aren't there? I mean, I know that's very British Dinklage, I'm guessing Game of Thrones went all over the world and stuff. Well, I mean, this is great news. This is very good news.

Simon: 44:19

I'll try and put the link up. He wins his BAFTA he goes up on stage and he does a speech and it is funny as well as sharp and quick. He also is on a little Segway type machine, and hanging from the handlebars is a disabled sticker, the little blue wheelchair symbol

Phil: 44:37

Oh, right.

Simon: 44:38

and. I, I, I know. I just like that that was there.

Phil: 44:43

Did he go behind a lectin that was too tall? Did he do that gag?

Simon: 44:45

He did it to the side of the lectern. Don't you start your cheap jokes.

Phil: 44:50

No, it was, it would be absolutely a political statement cuz

Simon: 44:55

I, I see what you mean. Right. If, if he made it

Phil: 44:58

is not accessible. You remember famously, Tanny Gray Thompson not being able to get on the stage to get a bloody award.

Simon: 45:03

Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, he he didn't have time for that. He's too cool for that. He's just, he just stole his, oh know, he had his moment and he was very good. You're right. And I probably, after this show, I will now think of seven other amazingly influential people who have dwarfism, who have done great stuff. I think it's just something about Lenny being 14

Phil: 45:22

That's very different,

Simon: 45:24

it's like a whole career ahead of him and you know, who knows what will happen.

Phil: 45:28

a huge message to youngsters. I mean, I remember the, the, the school series,

Simon: 45:36

Grange Hill

Phil: 45:36

Grange Hill with the wheelchair user all those years ago.

Simon: 45:40

well, Lisa Hammond who has dwarfism was in that and now you know, we, yeah, I mean that's the point. I probably will list them all and go what took her so long. But it's just, I mean, very lovely and I, you know, he is such a likable chap and cuz he buttered me up with a bit of flattery, although,

Phil: 45:57

Although you all the credit, do you, for his career?

Simon: 46:00

No. In any,

Phil: 46:01

You had to think though didn't you? You hesitated

Simon: 46:04

the hesitation was, cuz I couldn't think of a joke quick enough. But the, the joke is, yeah, you know what? I kicked all the doors in and made you come through. He's got through on his talent, but there is a timing thing. Absolutely. And anyway, I'm in awe of him now a bit like I am with Ellie and Peter, they're, they're the heroes. Any listeners corner?

Phil: 46:23

No, it's gone strangely quiet on the Listeners' Corner front. Come on listeners. Biros out

Simon: 46:29

Yeah. Uh, yeah. Yeah. Postcards, all that stuff.

Phil: 46:33

if you are digitally excluded. Biros out.

Simon: 46:35

Did I send you tickets, by the way? Have you got

Phil: 46:38

You did and I didn't even say thank you. Did I?

Simon: 46:41

Not at all. Just to say, here's the dullest story. I sent seven envelopes, six of'em had tickets, all went second class I sent a card first class, the card took a week to get there. The second class arrived in two days what you doing Royal Mail?

Phil: 46:57

You heard it here first.

Simon: 46:59

Fascinating insight. You can edit that bit out. We should stop. Let them go.

Phil: 47:05

Okay. So If you've enjoyed this show, which is highly unlikely and you want to comment and send us stuff or just, I don't know, keep in touch our email address is mintyandfriend@ gmail.com.

Simon: 47:22

We are on, Facebook, we are on Instagram, and we are on Twitter, and it's lovely when we hear from you. And yeah drop us a line through email or any of those methods. Thank you so much for listening. We hope you will come back next month.

Phil: 47:38

We most certainly do. So thank you very much and we'll see you soon.