The Way We Roll

Go out? Or not go out? That is the Question

August 25, 2020 Phil Friend and Simon Minty Season 2 Episode 5
The Way We Roll
Go out? Or not go out? That is the Question
Chapters
The Way We Roll
Go out? Or not go out? That is the Question
Aug 25, 2020 Season 2 Episode 5
Phil Friend and Simon Minty

It’s the format you tell us you love. When Phil and Simon shoot the breeze and take potshots at one another with the occasional wisecrack. This month, disability ninjas, changing places, Zoom fatigue and social care: crisis and funding. 

Changing Places toilets are the larger loos in public places for those who might need more assistance, a hoist or changing station. After a consultation, the regulations have changed and we shall see more and see them more quickly. 

Phil has been reading how much Zoom (our word for all online / video) calls can exhaust us. Six months ago we stopped after three meetings with different clients in one day and we had to pause as we travelled between sites. Now, six meetings a day, short breaks. We discuss the pros and cons of virtual working, and there are benefits. Phil reminds us we should book appointments with ourselves to help.  

Simon’s posits a theory - are some people disability ninjas? You are chatting with them and then, from nowhere, they make your disability the focus! Is it limited to religious evangelists and OT’s? Does it vary on your condition? 

The UK has a social care system that by general agreement isn’t working. So what’s the solution? Phil reminds us when it was within the NHS and the failings, both in practical terms and how we viewed disability as a result. 

Links 

BBC Changing places loos 

Changing Places Org website

The outcome of Govt consultation on Changing Places toilets

BBC Zoom fatigue

Forbes Zoom fatigue 

Article from 2017, explaining Social Care and the National Health Service 

NHS social care and support guide 

Neil Crowther blog - Neil writes extensively on NHS and Social Care

Ninja images from Karstenakawheels 


Show Notes Transcript

It’s the format you tell us you love. When Phil and Simon shoot the breeze and take potshots at one another with the occasional wisecrack. This month, disability ninjas, changing places, Zoom fatigue and social care: crisis and funding. 

Changing Places toilets are the larger loos in public places for those who might need more assistance, a hoist or changing station. After a consultation, the regulations have changed and we shall see more and see them more quickly. 

Phil has been reading how much Zoom (our word for all online / video) calls can exhaust us. Six months ago we stopped after three meetings with different clients in one day and we had to pause as we travelled between sites. Now, six meetings a day, short breaks. We discuss the pros and cons of virtual working, and there are benefits. Phil reminds us we should book appointments with ourselves to help.  

Simon’s posits a theory - are some people disability ninjas? You are chatting with them and then, from nowhere, they make your disability the focus! Is it limited to religious evangelists and OT’s? Does it vary on your condition? 

The UK has a social care system that by general agreement isn’t working. So what’s the solution? Phil reminds us when it was within the NHS and the failings, both in practical terms and how we viewed disability as a result. 

Links 

BBC Changing places loos 

Changing Places Org website

The outcome of Govt consultation on Changing Places toilets

BBC Zoom fatigue

Forbes Zoom fatigue 

Article from 2017, explaining Social Care and the National Health Service 

NHS social care and support guide 

Neil Crowther blog - Neil writes extensively on NHS and Social Care

Ninja images from Karstenakawheels 


Announcer:

This is The Way We Roll with Simon Minty and Phil Friend.

Music:

[ Music ]

Simon:

Hello, welcome to The Way We Roll one to one with me Simon Minty.

Phil:

And me Phil Friend.

Simon:

This is the show where it's the two of us, and we get to talk about the issues of the day. Um, I pitched one in which is the changing places. loo, this was an article on the BBC website, 19th of July, large accessible toilets for severely disabled people known as Changing Places will be made compulsory , uh , in England from 2021. This was around 250,000 severely disabled people who would benefit from this. What do you think? Mr. Friend?

Phil:

Well,, I mean, I remember this campaign starting and there were horrific photographs or videos of mothers looking after their grown up children, 20 somethings on the floor of ordinary toilets because they had no space or they were using the accessible loos, but that was miles too small too and I remember the, furore, this caused the indignity of it and so, on so they've done a brilliant job haven't they, the people campaigning have done a fantastic job.

Simon:

Uh, I agree with you in the, the getting dignity back, which is so critical having a disability, we have to give up so much on occasions. They're talking about service stations, they're talking about , um, shopping centers, all the sort of regular places that you will go to. I'm sure, as I read in the article, there were a few caveats and this is England. It's not, you know , Scotland, Ireland, Walesand there was a sort of delay, there was a sort of run in that. We're going to have to wait a bit, but the principal sounded very positive.

Phil:

Yeahand, and what's pleasing is the 2021, because if you remember, when you and I were hanging out in 1995, the building changes, we're going to take like 10 years. Do you remember that premises had to be? And I couldn't find when I read the same notice you did, I couldn't find the dateand I thought, Oh God, I hope they're not going to delay this for another x-months, but it's great that they haven'tand I suppose the consideration from the vendor point of view that the service station and so on is these rooms by definition are going to take up a lot more space and space is at a premium. We all know what they want to do with their space is sell from it. They don't want to use it for, so I'm interested to see , um, how, you know, the sales teams of these organizations work around this one because , um, I mean, there will be some places where they simply don't have the room,

Simon:

but is there a distinction between , um, uh , shopping mall or , uh , service stations where you've got all the separate shops and then you the loos that service everybody as compared to a single John Lewis, for example, having a Changing Places. I think it's more about these communal areas at the moment.

Phil:

Yesand certainly in the past things like I know football grounds, some of the football grounds have stood out as being exemplars in this area where they've constructed them, but football stadium tend to have spaceand the toilet facilities for fans are legendary. Not very nice, actually. Um , what are people supposed to do in, in Scotland, Ireland and Wales then? Are they not supposed to go out then? Is that, is that what happens to them?

Simon:

Well, they've got to do what they've been doing all this time as well.

Phil:

What cross their legs?

Simon:

And these are the ones where these are the hoists aren't thereand they have those big, long changing stations, which I found quite nice. If you wanna have a little nap on the, on the journey, (laughter) people always bang on the door. though don't they.

Phil:

It's the people who need to get their fix. They want to get in. Cos if you remember, one of the reasons there all locked is because of the abuse, but this is a definite step in the right direction. No doubt. Yeah.

Simon:

At the risk of spinning off, we do need to do.

Phil:

We never do that. Do we? We never spin off!

Simon:

I'd like to go back and do you remember? You mentioned this, the nineties and early 2000 and all those committees and bodies that were like Equality 2020, and tube stations by 2019, or there were lots of things that were going to be in achieved by 2020 or maybe 2025.

Phil:

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Hello whats changed? (Laughter)

Simon:

I want to know one where those people are, who sat on those bodies and two, yeah what has been achieved.

Phil:

I've said this before on this podcast, I think we should do a review of all the prime ministers initiatives. So, you know, whenever any prime minister is elected, they have a big thing they're going to do. Now the one that stands out for me always was the sort of Social Charter that John Major and we were all gonna, you know, they've never been repealed those things they've never been, I don't know if they were ever actually enacted as Acts, but they were initiatives t hat just disappeared. What was Cameron's? Can you remember.

Simon:

Big Society, big society?

Phil:

What happened to it ? What's Boris's is it just lose weight and cycle more? Is that Boris?

Simon:

It's interesting that some of that's the Mayor when he was a Mayor uh, I've said, Mayor, four times. Boris busses, but I'm thinking it will previous times, I, I don't even want to think what the legacy will be of his bearing in mind we've had but COVID-19 Brexit. It's not looking promising

Phil:

He won't want to be remembered for all of that, will he but , um, no, I, I just think sometimes yes, you're right. What happens is initiatives. I often feel that this happens a bit with enquiries, the Grenfell Tower enquiry now in its what fourth year. Been adjourned, no results yetand people understandably are beginning to be really angry about this. It seems to be a device for kicking things down the road so that you don't ever make decisionsand then are talking about an inquiry on the COVID thing. When will that publish? I'll be gone by the time they publish the results.

Simon:

I think that is, I'm not defending it. I think we become wise that this is a, it can be a ruse to take the heat out, let it carry on. But the flip side is sometimes you got to take the heat out and you've got to let it calmand you've also got to wait until the evidence is in, but yeah,

Phil:

That I get but It shouldn't take five years to produce a reportand I watched, I've been watching on TV recently, the Murdoch thing, and that showed the Levinson enquiry. Do you remember the Levinson enquiry? Levinson 2 has never taken place. It's never happened.

Simon:

And I think that was part I didn't. I thought David Cameron said, but I'm not going to implement it. I think there was a big furore when he said I'm not going to do half the things that were recommended anyway,

Announcer:

This is The Way We Roll hosted by Simon Minty and Phil Friend.

Simon:

We I'm moving on to a new subject. If you couldn't tell what's your, what's your beef?

Phil:

I don't know if it's a beef, it's more a concern and it links a bit to you and to people of your ilk. Yes. Um, I listeners I don't know that you know this, but Simon has been incredibly busy over the last few months at, during COVID, particularly. It was busy with all that to be fair, but he's busy as busy now, but what's changed is that he spends most of his time having Zoom calls , um, a jumps from one Zoom call to another Zoom calland a couple of days ago, someone I know pretty well that I interact with had done 11 calls. Now they were pretty short and so on. Um, but they were jumping from call to call to calland then yesterday I spoke to somebody else who'd had three or four calls, Zoom calls of this, or I use Zoom as the collective nounfor video calls. So here's the thing. When we were able to hold face to face meetings with each other, we would estimate that Simon or I would jump in our car we'd drive somewhere, we'd have a cup of tea. The meeting would start. We spent a couple of hours, maybe less. We jumped back in our car and then we'd go to the next meeting and possibly if we were really busy and we might squeeze in two meetings in a day, maybe even three, but there was reflection time in between you unwound, you were seeing real people. I don't mean people on Zoom aren't real, but you were in the room with people I'm wondering, and I've been reading stuff from other people about the stress that's now beginning to emerge from this kind of incessant online activity. So I'm worried about the impacts on our health, particularly some p eople's health, where they may be more vulnerable than others from the kind of stresses that go with this thing. Um, and the other is whether or not the outputs are as effective. So in other words, are we making good decisions? Because how do you record all the actions that you're supposed to do after each of these c alls? Now I know we can r ecord the c alls, that's helpful, but then you've got to listen back to, I d on't k now how many, so I don't know, Simon, what do you think? C ause you're, s omebody's doing an awful lot of this and it just, it worries me. I'm worried for you Simon. It's a bit like the Archers, you know? Oh, I'm worried about you Simon.

Simon:

And I do appreciate that you, you do a comedic line, which is really right, but also , um, I don't know what to do with, whenever you say, I'll say to you, I've got these three calls tomorrow and I'm a bit busy and you go, you need to stop being so busy and I go, well, I don't know what to do with that. Do I just tell people, no, I'm not gonna talk to you or it this morning when they squeezed in a board meeting, which was about the finances. Uh, and I kind of think I'd rather not do that this morning. I'd rather just do our podcast, but I have to. Um, so I don't know. I mean, I suppose I could do less things. I could start shifting things. You're quite right. Um, so the word I do is agree. I've kind of come out the other side with the Zoom thing. I went into it full on. Do you remember? I've said this many a time. Cause I thought I live on my own. I'm going to be lonely. So I booked in three weeks worth of calls every evening with friends (laughter) and family unbeknown that the whole world would start using bloody video calls and I was doing all them all day and then in the evening it was exhausting. People say let's have one at seven, eight o'clock in the evening and I don't do them for two reasons. One I'm tired. I don't want to do them anymore. Plus people start drinking on them and you and I don't really drink and the idea of watching someone else get drunk on a video call. If you're not, is the longest time, your deeper point about the wellbeing. I had a four hour board meeting Zoom call , uh , this week and I d on't know how to say i t, b ut I enjoyed it. There's something a bit. We had two 10 minute breaks in there. So you can go make a cup of tea get a biscuit. You're right. It's about pacing. I t's about b reaks i t. Y ou didn't say that but the level of how many we do is too much. You're right. We used to get breathing space, although I'd flip it and say, yeah, I'd get back in my car. I drive half an hour in traffic. Then I'd get stressed about finding another parking space. Then I'd have to get my scooter out. What I love about all these big meetings is I get out of bed, have a shower, and I 've n ow a ge I'm sitting doing the call.

Phil:

Yeah and that, and I get that. I think pros are many. There are definitely lots of pros. I agree and I'm doing a fair few of these myself, but nothing like you. I think so. It's it's you said it actually, one of the things we used to sound the PDP course about assertiveness was that every time you say yes, you're saying no to somebody else. So if we're being bombarded by requests , so that meeting you talked about on finance, that you squeezed into everything you didn't really want to do. I don't know who you said no to, you know, because you'd said yes to that. So it's kind of, and I suspect the person you said no to was yourself.

Simon:

I said no to my bed.

Phil:

You said no to your bed, did your bed respond? I mean, it's kind of we forget that we need time I mean, I've l earned over time, not this isn't somebody once said to me, Phil, you need to make appointments with yourself. You keep appointments that you make with everybody else. Why don't you put things in your diary, which are about you and I have to say it works. I do tend.

Simon:

I like that.

Phil:

So I'm kind of, I'm not suggesting that there are many benefits to this cos I think there are it's how do we learn how to manage it better so that we're not feeling wasted at the end of it and for those who listen to us who do have conditions where energy and all that stuff is at play, they need to, you know, they need to look after their energy levels much more than perhaps your , I do.

Simon:

Um , you mentioned the bit, which we miss and I miss being in the room with people very much so particularly around training or that sort of stuff and you know, I've even been to one or two dinners, which we might talk about in a minute and I used to hug people, hello and goodbye and I can't do that anymore. So all of those just being around human beings, I really do miss.Yesterday I was due to have a walk around the park with a colleague, instead of doing a Zoom call. We said, let's walk around the park and have a meeting, which is a lovely idea. They canceled on me a couple of days beforehand. Now, in theory, it's done , not in theory in my head. I thought I'm going to book another one then and I didn't I did what you did, which was grabbed that time back, keep it. I was really glad the fact that I get to four or five o'clock in the other day and I think I don't want to talk to anybody on the video call anymore says I'm probably doing a bit too much. Yeah.

Phil:

But then there's all the, I mentioned it in passing, but it's important. There's all the prep you have to do before them and there's all the work you have to do when they're finished and if you're packing in lots and lots of them, then you're working and you and I used to do this. I know we worked long into the night and stuff, but its not good for you to do that all the time.

Simon:

There is one difference. Now, you know this because of your experience , I'm not doing so much training and consultancy . I'm going to quite a few board meetings, you know, for the theatres or , um , companies and so on and they're your reference point that they very rarely ask you to do something. So I'm very lucky that I don't have to take the minutes. Very rare that I've got a whole list of actions. I'm there literally as a sounding board, you're chairing the meeting . So you've got to do a lot. I'm just one of the many and I chip in and then I go away.

Phil:

What you're , what you're doing for me is identifying the different types of meetings. So if you're running and I know you have, you've been running some training programmess online, and I know you've reported to me that they're exhausting. You come off those absolutley wasted, whereas functional factual board meetings w ork really well because people stick to the point you get through the agenda. I agree with you. I think that's a really good use of the sort of video call, but you're right. You know, the team biscuits bit as well. I d on't k now. I just, I suppose what I'm saying to those people that l isten to us, be careful what, you know, watch what you're doing a nd see if you're doing a bit too much.

Simon:

And the last bit from me, I think it's, it's easier to say yes right now. So if someone said to me like, let's have these three meetings in London, I go, Oh, I physically couldn't do those. There's too manyand I couldn't get from a, to B to C with Zoom you don't have that. Oh, I can't be there. You're like , so I'll do like 20 minutes in between to get a cup of tea and go to the loo. So you're right. Maybe it's a lot easier to say yes, thinking it's all right and you forget the toll.

Phil:

Yeah. The day that you turn up on screen Simon in your pajamas, we know you've overdone it. (Laughter).

Simon:

It's even more worrying because I don't wear pajamas, that's going to be a shock.

Phil:

The mind boggles! (laughter).

Simon:

We did a comedy show with Abnormally Funny People last week and Steve Day had a shirt on a jacket. He looked great. He looked really smart and at the end of it , his piece , he stood up and sort of said , ah, I wasn't wearing any trousers, which is fine but we got a real closeup of him in his underwear and certain things look which you do not need and I shouted get out of the way and he blushed, he said, Oh , I'm so sorry. It was horrendous.

Announcer:

This is The Way We Roll presented by Simon Minty and Phil Friend. You can email us at [email protected]

Simon:

New topic. Uh, I haven't phrased this properly. Um, I want to call them disability ninjas. I'm going to give you a couple of examples. Many years ago, I, it was when I was backpacking and I was sitting outside the Sydney Opera House on the steps and it was Christmas Day and I was on my own thinking of my family and this person came passed and said, hello, hello and stranger and they said, just want to say Happy Christmas and they gave me a giftand I remember at the time sort of welling up and thinking, Oh my goodness, there's such great people in the world. I opened it up and it was the Bible and I thought, Oh wow. It was a kind of, I dunno , I don't know who they were, but they were obviously evangelical and they were, you know, and it's still, the spirit was the nice thing. Uh , this week I needed to borrow a parking space and from one of my neighbours, parking is competitive. Uh, and this very kind neighbour said, yeah, you can use my space and I said, that's really great. I've got this guy coming around he's going to design an office for me , um , on my wall , uh, with cupboards and stuff like that. She wrote back and said, Oh, I'd love to come round and see that when it's done. Uh, and I was like, Oh yeah , sure. I mean, it'll be a little while. Then the disability Ninja bit kicked in and she explained, she's a occupational therapist there was a big paragraph. I'm all about independence. I never take over people and it turned into a sort of a salesy pitch and there was nothing sort of wrong with it. Do you ever meet people Phil who you're having a chat with them, general chats about stuff and then suddenly the disability bit comes in and you don't see it coming and you're like, Oh my goodness, it's taken a different turn .

Phil:

Do you, no, I'm I'm , as you were saying, it I was trying, I was searching the database, you know , um,

Simon:

My theory is not holding up is it?

Phil:

No I haven't encountered that recently, but I used to encounter it an awful lot. Um, and that goes back several years. I mean, the classics, the absolute classics I've I've mentioned to you before, but perhaps the listeners haven't heard, I was once in a pub in Norwood having a pint back in the days when I enjoyed a drink and this woman came up to me and put her hands on my legs. Absolutely and then said that I would walk again. All I needed was to have faith and I remember being very shocked by that at the time, very non- plussed. I didn't know what to do. I was quite a lot younger then and I was, it came to me many years later when I started getting involved with people like you, that they talked about the fact that being disabled made you a kind of public exhibit people felt they could touch you and do things to you. So that's one example. Another example where I was much better prepared was when I was again in a pub, lots of pubs and I was drinking and this bloke walked past and dropped 10p in my glass and said, that's for being brave and I said, that's not enough for a pint. I was much quicker and s aid, could you double the amount please? U m, but I haven't had what you've just described. I can't honestly say t hat that's happened to me. That's very interesting. Isn't it?

Simon:

I think there's something about, we always tease and laugh a little bit about occupational therapists of having a sort of way about them and a style about them. It's almost like they, they wish they were disabled sometimes, c ause they want to be so close to everything. U m, u h, but yeah, I might be overplaying i t. I think one occasion, which it still saddens me to this day, actually I'd been working with a colleague and, u h, this is a long time ago, 20 years ago and she, we got on really well. We were always b est buddies w orked together brilliantly and she was moving to America. So we went out for a farewell meal and a drink and I think as dropping h er home and like half an hour before we're going to get there, she suddenly said, so, y ou k now, what's it like being short and it devastated me. It's devastated me one why is that suddenly co me a round the corner and tw o, okay the fact that yo u've w aited three years and now you're asking me when I'm never go ing t o s ee you again, it really saddened me now, you know, there might be other motives that I'm missing here, but it was one of those on that occasion. I wish yo u'd c ome up a bit earlier about it.

Phil:

Do you think there is a distinction between then , uh, your impairment, your presentation, the way that you live your life is different from me, for example, as a wheelchair user , did you think there's, is it something to do with it? I mean, one of the things we've talked about, I think I'm not sure if we didn't talk about it last time was the idea of , um, people, small people being the butt of jokes and all that kind of stuff. The subject of comedy, you tend not to see that quite the same in , in the wheelchair space or, or other disability space. I'm just wondering, is, is there a, I don't know, I'm just asking the question. Is there some kind of thing about it ,

Simon:

A few things , uh , your, your work, the phrasing is the old Erving Goffman, the sociologists , the presentation of self in everyday life.

Phil:

Asylums and all that stuff.

Simon:

Yeah, absolutely. Uh , and Stigma, maybe that stuff. Um, your other point from that talk, we did on Friday about Dwarfism and the ethics of humour.

Phil:

That's what I was remembering.

Simon:

And my theory was with a wheelchair user or someone blind, there is not an instinct to, to laugh. There may be a weird perverse sort of pity or l ife i s tough for them and tragedy, but with short people, no, no, no. It's a brand new b all g ame. U m, yeah, maybe. I mean, I don't know. It may be in certain circumstances. Yes. U m,

Phil:

Although for three years to have been going around with you and not have raised much earlier on in your relationship, you know, how does life work for you?

Simon:

You know , and equally, because there are some people I know who don't ask me that, and I've known them for 25 years. So it's, you know, is it relevant? It's not relevant. Yeah. I'm feeling my disability Ninja Jehovah witness sort of theory is not holding a lot of weight here,

Phil:

Not with me, but that doesn't mean that there won't be people are listening to us who go, ah, yeah, I've had that. Yeah .

Simon:

We'll probably the link between this bit, we'll say this is how you can email us or something won't it?

Phil:

I will insert instructions. (Laughter)

Announcer:

This is The Way We Roll presented by Simon Minty and Phil Friend. You can email us at [email protected] or just search for Minty and Friend on social media. We're on Facebook, Twitter, and LinkedIn.

Phil:

I've seen some and I wanted to just mention, and maybe we'd spend a minute or two on is , um, there's beginning to be some concerns amongst people that I follow and read and so on that , uh, because of the crisis in social care , um, that there is discussions going on to move social care into health so that it's absorbed by the health service. Now I'm raising that as a, you know, something that's being talked about by people like us. Why is that important? Well, for those listeners who are much younger than me, you won't remember the Chronically Sick and Disabled Persons Act of 1971 which separated out young disabled people from geriatric wards for example. So there were numerous 20 somethings being looked after in geriatric wards . Before that Act, the concept of independent living hadn't even been thought about really, although it was being campaigned for, by people at the time, disabled people and so on. So as COVID does what COVID has done as it works its way through residential care settings, we know 20,000 older people have died in those institutions or those care homes. Um, as the government scrabbles around for some way of making social care better in quotes. Um, but at the same time tries very hard not to spend any more money , um, for perhaps understandable reasons. There are real concerns that this would be a major backward step. Um, as we know, NHS bless it is about being poorly. It's about getting you better , um, independent living and living your life in that way is not about disability being seen to be a medical problem. So the minute we go back into, if we ever did go back into that health thing , um, 50 years of work would have been undone.

Simon:

Here's a little bit for me, but say we have a listener in the USA that the whole concept of social care is what are you talking about? What this is looking after people who might be elderly it's about people who have needs. They have disabilities. Yes. Certain children. Yes. We're trying to think.

Phil:

Well, it's just , it's, it's about people being provided with support services and other things that enable them to live in the community. So things like wheelchairs, the wheelchair services administered by local authorities , um, the , uh , independent living support workers provided by local government finance, those kinds of things, enabling very severely disabled people to lead independent lives as far as they are able to do so,

Simon:

And in my lifetime, there are people who are in mental health institutions that came out and they were supported to live in society and we also know people who might have had learning disability or neurodiverse that they were in a home and now they're in supported living or they know that it's a step in and out. So , um, my sort of guru and probably yours on this is what obviously Jane Campbell, but then there's Neil Crowther who blogs and tweets and I'd sensed from him. He doesn't want it to go back to NHS beyond this sensible bit of health and disability, not the same necessarily. What are the, what is the other risk? Why do you think this is a bad thing?

Phil:

I think it's, it's symbolic. It's it's saying something. Um, what Alf Morris was all about, by the way, I read a stat about his speech in the night, he was on his feet for four hours and he used 30,000 words in his address to parliament about the importance.

Simon:

Has he ever done eleven Zoom calls? (Laughter)

Phil:

I mean, it was a major, it wasn't perfect. The Chronically Sick Disabled Persons Act had its problems, but it was a recognition symbolically that disability and independence were not the same as health and being ill. They were separated out and the health service back in those days had no resources to keep a 23 year old with cerebral palsy in hospital for life. That's what it meant. You were going to stay there till you died. Well, we now know that someone with cerebral palsy of 24 hopefully will die when they're 75 in their own bed, you know? Um, so it's symbolic and it shifts in my head at least it shifts away from progression about social inclusion back to a kind of segregated by definition. If you're living in hospital, if that's where we ended up, that may be, there are plans and maybe there are to fund social care using health service budgets. I don't know, but local authorities are much better and we've heard this from COVID, you know, local authorities are much better at ministering what's in their local areas than a centrally governed body is and that's what the NHS tends to be like.

Simon:

I was thinking about this in a sort of slightly bigger picture. I mentioned the USA where this doesn't happen and I, there was some tweet , not that long ago where like a DIY store had made a walking frame for someone who had a disability and they donated to them and they'd made them out of various pipes bits and everyone's going to all, this is inspirational this is wonderful and a guest of ours , Abbi Brown went, no, this is shocking that the state doesn't provide this person with something that is safe and is made for them rather than having this Billy Bodge you know, the intention is good, but the outcome's wrong. Yeah . Then I think of other cultures where you wouldn't live separately, that your family look after you, you stay with them. You know , we'd go after our elderly parents we'd look after our children, whatever it may be and it's just part and parcel of it. I also feel there's this whole group of unpaid unknown carers that are probably propping up that social care thing there's a letter in the Guardian this week where a 93 year old. When I say lovely, shocking letter, she's 93 living after looking after a 66 year old son, who's got multiple conditions and she is not great as well and you're thinking where's the support for them?

Phil:

One of the major issues of social care is it's under resourced. It is simply not being given the resources that budgets and so on it needs. So rather than fix that, there are there's conversations going on to move it back into something where it didn't work before and you're absolutely right. We know that , um , I live with Sue and Sue is doing all sorts of things. She's not getting me up or feeding me or taking me to the loo and stuff, but she does an awful lot of things that if she weren't here, I'm not sure I could cope with it without paying somebody or, you know, relying on a neighbor or something and then you're into that unpaid care stuff and often that's nice, you know, neighbours and things. It's great that we care about each other, but it becomes a burden. I mean, 93, and you're still having to do that kind of stuff. That can't be right. Can it,

Simon:

I would say read , um , one of Neill's blogs and he said, we've got round we understand the concept of social care for kids as in us, as a society need to make sure that children have the right support, the funding, the, whatever it is they need, but we haven't quite got that for elderly people. We don't

Phil:

One of my pet hobby horses, certainly when I was at DRUK (Disability Rights, UK ) was to keep reminding people that older people want to be independent too . You know, it doesn't stop when you're 35, when you're 75, why can't you exercise your choice about what you do and where you go and so on and so forth . Now I know it's trickier because as we get older, of course, things begin to change for our health and other stuff. But I think Neil's right about that. We must make sure we tell Neil we're talking about this cos I think it's, it's one of the big, scary things that are coming out of COVID that maybe will get changed without people realizing under the cover of something else.

Simon:

It was always a big, scary thing. I don't think anyone's at the gumption to address it and do it properly and do you remember Theresa May put it as the front page of her campaign that , you know, you put up your house, you had to pay contribution, but the government cap it and that had to come out straight away. So actually how we fund this seems to be really messy and controversial. So there's the symbolic or the principle of do not put it with health. It's a separate thing, but then there's also the actual, are we ever going to fund this properly? Yeah.

Phil:

And the , and they are big challenges that I that's not trivialize it, but, but we, we don't, we shouldn't go backwards. We should be going forwards and thinking about how do we fund something that is getting more and more important because more of us are living to much greater ages and stuff.

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This is The Way We Roll hosted by Simon Minty and Phil Friend.

Simon:

We are going to finish on , uh , one more subject , um, lock down restrictions are being lifted, although on the day of recording I think some of them have been tightened up again. Um , you had a question, Phil.

Phil:

I just wondered whether people felt, how people felt about going out now for a meal or getting on a bus or a train, or, and I'm thinking particularly about people who've spent that. I mean, I've been following our friend, Liz Carr on her Facebook page and you know, she's got notches on the wall for how many months she's been in. You know, she's hardly been out at all and a lot of people are beginning to feel and are being allowed to go out. But I just wonder how people feel, how safe they feel. Speaking personally, I have not been, I have been in B&Q. I bought some bolts in B&Q. I did that without too many problems.

Simon:

It was worth risking your life for!

Phil:

It was indeed. I wore my mask. Um, they were very well organized there and so on, but I haven't been to my local restaurant, which we used to do reasonably frequently. Why? Because I don't know why. I just feel a little bit unsafe. I guess

Simon:

The one I saw with Liz , they did go out in their own car. They did watch , um , film,

Phil:

A Drive-In movie, or something wasn't it or something. Ye ah, yeah.

Simon:

You know , littered throughout that little expedition was, she said, I loved being part of something. I loved being in society. Even I loved being in the traffic jam. Cause that meant other people around, they never left the car. All the windows were done up. I mean, they were, it was only within the safety of the bubble. I went for a dinner with our colleagues , Susan Scott Parker and I went to my favorite place that Hawksmoor restaurant and I thought if someone's going to do it well, it will be that restaurant and the tables were very widely set out. Absolutely. I mean, you could still peer over and see what they were having in case you fancied it. But , um , and there weren't perspex screens between everybody. The bit that spooked me was that none of us staff wore masks and I just kind of thought you would, wouldn't you? Um, weirdly I convinced my family, including my elderly parents to come to this restaurant, we'd have a sort of reunion and we could all go out and I went first and I came back and reported to them and said, what do you think? And they went, no, not ready yet

Phil:

Because of the masks?

Simon:

Yeah and the food. Yeah. I mean the food isn't good enough for them. It wouldn't be anywhere else . But I think it might've been that , or maybe just the whole thing of being out with a whole bundle of people who, and it is social.

Phil:

It's very strange. My, my son, my youngest son and his partner are coming down for the weekend from Liverpool and we watched last night with mounting concern as Manchester and places got named. Now, Liverpool wasn't mentioned and they're supposed to be coming down big debate. When they last came down, they slept in our motor home. They did not come in. They slept in our motor home and they I've got a bathroom in there and stuff. Um, this time Sue and I had been debating whether they would come into the house and I, I guess what's changing in a positive way is we're getting clearer local intelligence about how many cases there are in our area and that kind of thing, which gets more reassuring. But I have no clue what Jack and Jenny had been up to in Liverpool. You know, they're young people, they will have been out. He works very hard. So does she so, ah, here we go again, is it paranoia or what is it?

Simon:

There is a bit about who is being safe and so on. Um , on Monday I went into two people's houses, my parents and Jane Campbells and you know , they're two people I care about and the idea of even passing anything on the terrify , me , um, we kept socially distanced. That's the critical bit. You're always keeping away from them. Um, which is horrible because your family want to walk up to you or they want to get close to you, or you've got to go in and out of doors and so on, but we had windows open, all those things. I don't know. I don't know. Um , if I put my other hat on into, I talked about boards and trustees and there's theatre groups and there's dance groups that are desperate to get punters to come back and if we're nervous about getting in our friend's house or we're nervous about having something to eat, it's gonna be a long time before we're going to sit in the theatre next to someone.

Phil:

No, absolutely. I think the government, perhaps unwittingly did a really good job of frightening the life out of us. Now it's going to take, you know, we all stayed in didn't we, we did, as we were told, now what they're saying is within reason you can do this, this, this, this, and this, but the psychology hasn't changed. We were still in some ways and it is, I'm talking as an older person. I mean, Jack, my son is 30. So he's, he's hardly lightly bless him to be seriously ill if he got it. But yeah, but you know, you feel for him because he can't go to the theatre or do these other things,

Simon:

But it's about being careful for you as well. I mean, I've been in your house a few times, admittedly, you weren't there, (laughter) but this is not the best time to bring it up, I guess. But , um, yeah, it's knowing that they are not, I don't mean Jack is reckless, but if Jack is hanging out with lots of other people and he will go to a bar and stuff like that, yeah . I'd be a bit more

Phil:

And it's working, you know , he's meeting people onsite, he's, you know, whatever he's doing, I know he's taking, they all are, you know, socially distancing and so on. Um, but it just, I thought, are we ready to welcome the outside world again? I don't know.

Simon:

I, the office design person who came , uh, I said, you got to put mask and gloves on, or you're not coming in. Which he did. Uh , if you came around because I feel you are very safe in how you've been living your life. I wouldn't put a mask on, you know, ask you to put a mask. I'm sorry.

Phil:

I think it would be. Did you wear one when you went to see Jane, by the way?

Simon:

No, I offered , um , we also, we met in the hallway and stood for about five minutes chatting and I mentioned, I said, I can't just stand like this, my legs and we get, is this the meeting? This is the whole evening we'll be standing in the hallway, 12 feet away from each other and eventually we moved across. Um,

Phil:

So Jane was obviously being careful to absolutely.

Simon:

It was very much about distance distance and how has that person been living their life. But equally I do go to supermarkets. I don't know.

Phil:

I think you're, we're confused. Aren't we that's the point. We're not sure and that doesn't help make decisions. Like, should we go out for a meal if you're not sure and,

Simon:

And isn't it at the time of recording the next day or two those who've been shielding for four months in theory. I think they're allowed out, but we're bumping that back a couple of weeks and there's lots of people I know who were mentioning high risks , Gareth, Berliner, the comedian , uh , with Crohns and different tubes going into him. He said, I'm not going to go out yet . t's it's the old classic. My dad used to do this with driving. It's not that your, a risk or a danger. It's about all the other people out there on the road. They could be the danger to you.

Phil:

Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Let check back in on this subject again at another show and see how, see how things are.

Simon:

We may even get to record one in the same room one day.

Phil:

That would be nice. Wouldn't it? That would be nice. Yeah. I miss your food. I miss your food.

Simon:

I was going to say, you get one of my lunches. That is it for the One to One show. Thank you very much. Especially if you've made it to all the way to the end. We do appreciate that.

Phil:

We certainly do so take it easy. Thanks for listening.

Simon:

Do drop us a line and say hello. It's always welcome. Bye bye. Bye.

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