Affirmative model, vaccinations and problematic parakeets (again!)

Two jabs Phil has had both vaccinations to protect him from Covid-19. How has it changed him? Is he wild and free at last or staying in with the windows closed? 

Never one to miss a debate about one of the models of disability, Simon asks Phil what does he think of the ‘affirmative model’. Is this the answer to the charity/tragedy model of disability? If it’s valid, how can it become useful? Stick with this one as it gets a little silly at the end. You can also watch us discuss this, with extra material edited from the podcast, via our YouTube channel, link below. 

Phil is parroting on about those pesky parakeets again but feels vindicated now BBC Radio 4 have started talking about them too. There’s also another look at what life might be like post-pandemic and what will we relish returning to our lives. 

Links

Affirmative Model - Disability Arts Colin Hambrook interviews Colin Cameron 2009  

Disability and Society - Towards an Affirmation Model of Disability -John Swain & Sally French 2010

YouTube video of Phil and Simon discussing the Affirmative model of disability. 

Simon’s ‘should have gone viral dwarf Giraffe’ tweet 

Minister Liz Truss hinting at the ‘only disability is a bad attitude’ trope. 

BBC ‘Broadcasting House’ show on parakeets 17.1.2021

Transcript

Announcer  0:00  
Welcome to The Way We Roll with Simon Minty and Phil Friend.

Simon Minty  0:14  
Hello and welcome to The Way We Roll with me Simon Minty.

Phil Friend  0:18  
And me Phil Friend.

Simon Minty  0:19  
Its late, but it is a new year. So we wish the listener a very happy new year and a happy new year to you, Phil.

Phil Friend  0:27  
And to you Simon and to you.

Simon Minty  0:29  
There is light at the end of this COVID tunnel and a certain person on the show (Simon sings) "is immune to this stuff. Oh yeah".

Phil Friend  0:39  
Apparently so. Yes. listener, a big party, big celebrations all come around mine for a big hug. Because I've got the vaccine. I've had two. I've had two vaccines. And I mean, first of all, dealing with the vaccines. It was interesting because the doctor's surgery where I had it done, had bays all marked off down the road with big signs saying vaccination parking only. Oh, yeah. And they had security personnel outside. And as you went in, they kind of looked at you and asked what you were there for and stuff. And I said, Why is this? Well, you know, we're talking about 80-year-olds  on Zimmer frames. Me, we're not very high risk. People are pretending that they've been invited. And they haven't been. So that even at that point, this was before Christmas. I had my first dose just before Christmas, then I thought I wasn't going to get the second because they've been extended to 12 weeks. And I went on the sixth of January for my second and spoke to the doctor and said I thought you were going to cancel she said you've got to be joking phoning 900 people to say we're not going to do the second dose wouldn't have gone down at all well, both of my secretaries and receptionists and the patients, so we decided to disobey the government and go ahead anyway.

Simon Minty  1:59  
And the two sides have been about people faking it. I did see a chap on the news. He was a relatively older chap, you know, maybe 70s but not old, old. The bit I liked he said, Well, I'll get the call at some point. But you said someone's got to be last in the queue. can't all be first. It doesn't work like that. That's what queues are like and I thought well, you're a sound man. The flip of that is someone like my mum who's 82 and she's been very jumpy and all that social media messaging and the forward stuff and she didn't full any of it. But you can see people like other people are getting it why not me and when's my moment but that is happening now. You are younger than this and this is this because you were number three in the power list in 1986. (Laughter) You got your vaccines or how did you wangle it?

Phil Friend  2:46  
I think it's about knowing people in high places Secretaries of State I just ring people say look come on. Do you know I feel a bit of a fraud if I'm honest because apart from type two diabetes, I am a lot younger than many of the people that should have been and are getting it Sue my wife is not that different in age to me she's not had a call and she has got some respiratory asthma type thing but no, I've no idea. I have no idea. I did I do think it might have something to do I'd have told the listener this before. One of my routine checks for diabetes is my feet they look at your feet make sure your feet the circulation is good. And at a previous visit, the nurse did say to me You have got lovely skin on your feet beautiful. Now whether that's the nurse said let's have Phil in because he's got lovely skin on his feet or not I've there's no way I will ever know why this happened.

Simon Minty  3:49  
You know, the sort of cliche which I think we're gonna come on to later subject has the wheelchair got something to do with this that we know is not technically no because just post-polio!

Phil Friend  4:02  
Do you mean the tragedy/pity model?

Simon Minty  4:03  
That's what I'm kind of getting at yeah,

Phil Friend  4:05  
I do look brave don't I.  And I'm always smiling, and I never moan about anything. As you well know. I'm a very, very happy go lucky, brave little wheelchair soul.

Simon Minty  4:17  
So you're saying you deserve. 

Phil Friend  4:21  
I am, the deserving poor 

Simon Minty  4:22  
Plucky.

Phil Friend  4:23  
Plucky, plucky little plucker!

Simon Minty  4:26  
I'm pleased you've had it. Do you feel better?

Phil Friend  4:30  
One of the things that being serious now the vaccination obviously means I am much less likely to catch it and if I do it will be less severe. So that's great news for me personally. I do feel better that now I there's much much less risk of me getting it which is you know, and what? You know, we watch every night do we not on the TV, the news and so one of these people that are saying for goodness sake, take this seriously. They're lying, you know, breathing tubes coming out of everywhere. So yes, I do feel relieved that the chances of getting it now have gone down hugely, but the rest of the world still not able to do much. And that means I still can't see my kids and things like that.

Simon Minty  5:11  
And as a friend of mine, who is an entertainer who's lost all work, said, well, it's great, but it didn't change anything for me yet until it's kind of its until we're all done, or a significant chunk are done it is, well, how can I say this all? Is it stopping people dying from it? Because you've got some sort of immunity, hopefully. But it doesn't mean we've jumped straight back to a form of normality, yet

Phil Friend  5:37  
No, and what's interesting, you and I are in slightly different positions here, aren't we, because you do have parents who are in their 80s and until they are vaccinated, your ability to be with them can't be good, but you can't see them until you've been vaccinated either. Whereas in my case, most of my people I want to see are all much younger than me. But they won't get the vaccine till the end. So it's kind of odd, in a sense, isn't it? We're in slightly different. It's great news. The vaccine is out there and people are beginning to get it. So that's good.

Simon Minty  6:13  
Do you think anybody doesn't actually know what we're talking about the vaccines? Do you think we should not mention the word? Do you think there's anyone? Yeah, that's, by the way, live training.

Phil Friend  6:23  
Yes, the Coronavirus vaccine is what we're talking about listener sorry, didn't you know? Polio vaccine (Laughter) Dear oh dear!

Announcer  6:34  
This is The Way We Roll hosted by Simon Minty and Phil Friend.

Simon Minty  6:38  
We alluded to something about wheelchair and vaccinations and positioning, I want to introduce a new subject, Phil. This is about the affirmative model of disability. This is because I saw two people we know and love Mick Scarlett and Sam Renk who were discussing this on Twitter. And Mick Scarlett is a very firm advocate of the social model and Sam said, Well I quite like the affirmative model. I was like do I know enough about this? I found an article, it's disability arts online. This is 2009. And this model originally kicked in around 2000, from John Swain and Sally French, the academics and they were writing in Disability in Society. So we know there are lots of models of disability, the social model being a big one medical model, charity model, tragedy model. This affirmative model, the starting point was even if the social model was put into practice, and all the barriers around, were removed, to give equal access to employment, increased education, so on, it would still be possible for impairment to be seen as a personal tragedy, and for disabled people to be regarded and treated as victims of misfortune. So everything is accessible, so the disabling bit is gone. Unfortunately, you still have this disability. So if the social model was the reaction to the medical model, Swain and French were saying, We need something to address the charity/tragedy model. And this is you could say it's expressed in the voices of people who say, deafness is normal for me, I wouldn't want to be anything else. But deaf or, I've been blind since birth, why would I want to change? And this is who I am. I've got I have Down syndrome, but I don't suffer from it. I have it. This is just part of me. There's a little allusion to this is it important as a model? The article I'm quoting from it says, Because very often still disabled people find themselves under pressure to keep quiet about their impairments try and assimilate as if their impairments weren't part of who they were. They just a minor part of, you know who they are. And they regard them as embarrassing hindrances to overcome. This article says we didn't get a real true outline of what the affirmative model is, I'm going to stop in one second and let you come back in it. The idea is, is it a bit of a Pollyanna model? So it shouldn't be but it's like, well, we, the social model gets rid of all the barriers, and I love myself and everything's great. And we know that it's not true as well, because disability is about oppression. Having an impairment is not always wonderful. There's pain, there's a limitation, there's darkness, frustration, hurt and isolation. Anyhow. What do you think, as a concept of this affirmative model?

Phil Friend  9:37  
I, I read the article that you're quoting from, and I got quite excited to start with, and then I thought Hang on a minute when I'd read it all and then revisited it. I still don't think I quite understand what it is. I don't think they've spelt out in quite the way that I hoped they might. Or the writer might because he's a PhD, he did a PhD on this didn't he, the, the writer, and he interviewed 16 people, I'll come back to that in a minute. But he interviewed 16, disabled people of various hues, and, you know, experiences and so on. He clearly did some serious work around that. But what he hasn't done for me is to say what it actually is. So I'm still left a bit sort of hanging. Now, having said that, he sticks very firmly to this kind of idea that the impairment that you and I might have, invokes in other people and possibly in ourselves, feelings of pity, and, you know, difference, negative differences, those kinds of things. Now, that's fine. I, you know, don't have any argument with that. But he never goes on to say how the affirmation model for me at least, and maybe I'm missing something, you can help me, how the affirmation model helps reverse that or stop that happening. And he makes, I think, several statements, which in a minute, we'll look out again, which kind of lose some of the credibility for me of what he actually is saying.

Simon Minty  11:19  
And just for clarity, I will put the link up to the article, the chap was doing the PhD, Colin Cameron is his name. And he was saying, I want to do the PhD, because I don't think Swain and French gave us clarity about what it is they covered describe this loose term, and we didn't have enough definition, there is a book that came out in 2009, called on Equal Terms, I believe it's called which I didn't buy yet. You're right, this is an article about an article. So it's kind of two or three hands. If the essence is we've talked about this a million times where we've said social model solves all these barriers, they're all removed. However, I have condition A, I can't get around my house, this is miserable and difficult. Oh, there might be many of you who might go or say, Well, this is who we are. I don't want to be different. I like being me, with all the things. So the impairment almost is the impairment being a negative word goes out the window, again, is a positive thing. It's a, it's a useful, interesting, diverse thing. It makes me richer and different and engaging and all that stuff.

Phil Friend  12:34  
Now, that's very true. And that's that comes very clearly through in the article. And it's interesting, you mentioned Mick Scarlett and Sam Renk, being the two kind of conversationalists about this. Because what we haven't said in what we've said, Is this article is written from a disability arts point of view. So it's kind of saying disabled artists, people in the creative world of art and so on whatever form that takes should be saying more about the reason their art is so good and so different is because of their disability and what they get from that it makes them. So it's not a negative difference is a positive difference. And he does say that in the article very clearly, this is a positive difference, I am not negatively different. What he doesn't do for me is to talk, the 16 people that he interviewed, you know, I chair the Research Institute for Disabled Consumers, 16 people ain't gonna cut it for me when it comes to whether this is a universal truth, in a sense, but it is a PhD and he and he's done his work thoroughly. So I'm not disputing that. What's missing? Are those people who in their 50s 40s, and whatever becomes disabled, and how do they feel about it? And what did they their internal world look like? You know, someone says I was born with Down syndrome. So this is what I am. And you know, you can go take a running jump, I like being who I am, it's fine. But if I'm 50, and I suffer a brain injury, and I can no longer function in the way I used to before, how do I feel about that? Is that a tragedy? I think it is. Actually, I'll use that word. Yeah, I do. I think for that individual, were they sitting in their car that day going, God, You know what, I really hope that happens to me today I have a car smash, and I end up. So I think it's it's not accurate to say that people don't experience the onset of a disability as a tragedy is what happens after that, that gets more interesting. And we do know people course we do, who say my disability gave me a completely different view on the world I live in and I've used that to my advantage in an artistic way or creative way, whatever. 

Simon Minty  14:54  
And there's plenty of when I say plenty, probably two people who have said before I was a couch potato, and I'd eat my crisps and I did nothing. I then became disabled. And I started doing sports and activities, and now I'm healthier than I've ever been. So you're right there is this opening up. That is such a significant change in someone's life, but it is where they go. And I suppose what we're kind of saying is, we're entering into Liz Truss, the Equalities Minister bit about how much is the person's character going to inform this and how much is impairment or disability, going to inform this, but I'm kind of saying it could go both ways. I suppose, I even struggle with it. When you see someone who's had a profound impairment, they go, I love this, it's been the best thing that's ever happened to me. Even I go, Oh, come on. But I suppose what we're saying is, it might take time to adjust. We go back to social mobile to say, let's get rid of all the barriers that are blocking your return to the inclusion of society, but with the affirmative model is always trying to go and I just think of this, as I say, my dad had a stroke. He said the most infuriating thing was for two or three years after people go you alright? You'd better take it steady, that must have been difficult. And people pitying him. He said it wasn't the consequence of me having the condition that was difficult. It was other people bloody limiting me

Phil Friend  16:18  
Now that that is very much at the essence of what he's talking about, isn't it, it's the way society treats you. So you have this thing happen. Society then pities you feels whatever it feels for you. And you, therefore, feel that for yourself and bear in mind that before you had the accident, or whatever it was, you'd been conditioned for 40 odd years to see disabled people in that way. So now you become one a disabled person. And what's your default position? Oh, I want people to feel sorry for me because that's how it should work. You know, people feel pity from your dad is a good example, isn't he saying? That's not what helped me? What the affirmative model doesn't tell me is what do we do about it, then? What's the road out of this for society as a whole.

Simon Minty  17:01  
So I need to defend this is an article about a concept that wasn't fully formed, this is 2009 I found this blooming thing, what we need to do is get back to Sam Renk and say, where are you at on this. So something is very nice. And I do see the youngsters who are saying, I am what I am, I'm not going to defend it, or hide it, take it or leave it. And I think that's because of you and me and other disabled people who've gone out there and said 20 years ago, 10 years ago, look, this isn't my problem. This is your problem. Let's come into a society that started to move into change. And there, there is no shame. And that's immensely powerful.

Phil Friend  17:45  
And I don't have any arguments with the concepts he's outlining in that way. I don't agree with him. What I don't get is okay, so what then what we'll do, then? I mean, let's invent it. Yes, you and I define what the affirmation model is. 

Simon Minty  18:00  
You see, this is why we work so well. I'm saying there's a lot of criticism, Phil, but not a lot of ideas I'm hearing from you why don't you in your vaccinated perfect world come up with some perfect ideas for society

Phil Friend  18:13  
I read the article and what I wanted which to be fair, you've explained it was a concept. I wanted to read something that was gonna say to me, ah, if you because what the social model did was give me a route, a route map, it said, this is what's wrong. This is what should be done about it, we should challenge we should remove barriers, we should re-educate people, you and I have spent the last 20 odd years plus, meeting non-disabled employers and others and saying this is not the way it should be. And most of the time that group have heard us and have changed the way they go around things. Now, the affirmative model equivalent of the social model is what do I go out and do to help the pitying people stop pitying?

Simon Minty  19:04  
Yeah. And the brilliance but also I think a fault of the social model is it was so damn easy to grasp. It was so broad, it's so clever. This one if it does counteract the charity tragedy model, and I'm really pleased there is something because people conveniently forgot the charity tragedy model cos half of them work for one. So they were quite happy to let it go. Its always bugged me that one. So the fact that there is a counterpoint is really helpful. And the guy Colin was doing his PhD to say, I need a proper frame of reference, the book then came out after we would need to do some more research or listeners, including Sam and others. Give us some of your top five things. How do we get to the essence of this? And then yeah, we can talk about it again. But it feels strong and good to me. I just as you say, We want the tools.

Phil Friend  19:56  
Yeah, I mean, there's a line here. Quote, just to quote, again, there might be more access to mainstream culture than there was 10 15 20 years ago. But disabled people are still treated with pity and condescension, polite discomfort, furtive embarrassed glances and outright hostility. We might be able to get in now, but we're certainly but we're still made to feel unwelcome. Now, you and I are not going to disagree with that. I think there's a lot of that about what it doesn't do that paragraph is answer this question. So what about people who have not got a visible impairment then? See that paragraph addresses people who are visibly different? It doesn't address we've had this conversation loads of times, those who are non visibly different now, what he talks about in the article is that the way we oppress ourselves, so, you know, if I become disabled, I oppress myself by saying, I can't do anything anymore. It's all over for me. So that does lend itself to the affirmative model. But he doesn't say what I as an individual should do about that. And I think what his basic premise is that there is a root out of that if you belong to the arts, and you hang out with other disabled people, that peer support stuff he does talk about. So it's not you know, not I'm not saying there aren't some really good interesting stuff in here there is but there are big gaps.

Simon Minty  21:21  
And that's the point. He's saying that I think we have to leave the big questions as you say hanging in terms of the nonvisible. Again, be lovely to hear. I think they are by default. They're part of this because it says about the visible disabled who deliberately try and ignore or try and assimilate or try and pretend it's an embarrassing minor thing. Well, if you've got something that's not visible, you may well be doing that already. The flip for them is to be able to say, Yes, I've got condition A, you can't see it. But it gives me some limitation. But it also enhances my life. Because of x y, Zed, it's seeing the positive, not just the negative. I'm thinking of a context. Growing up seeing people with dwarfism on television felt very awkward because of the roles that they were being portrayed in and embarrassment. And then last week, I did it this shows my progression. I fid a tweet that really deserved to go viral. I think he got three likes. I saw an article in Reuters and it said, scientists have discovered dwarf giraffes. 

Phil Friend  22:28  
Oh, I saw that. 

Simon Minty  22:29  
And this has stunned the medical sorry stunned the scientific world, and I just went meh!. That's kind of you know, guys, so what dwarf giraffes get over it. Big deal. And that, for me is part of the affirmative model. And of course, there is we have dwarf people. We have dwarf giraffes. We have dwarf plants. Yada yada. 

Phil Friend  22:51  
And what about that giraffe saying so where are my people? Is he or she? Is she the only small giraffe?

Simon Minty  23:02  
Also, you know, it's hard to find bonsai trees in some of these African plains so they can eat. That's a really old gag I can't believe I'm self-deprecating like this.

Phil Friend  23:14  
So it's a work in progress, the affirmative model is that what we're saying its work in progress.

Simon Minty  23:20  
It certainly is. And for those giraffes, their society may not have developed enough I'm making judgments about giraffes us as human beings. We're sentient we have Yeah, okay, what, are you still there anyone there?

Phil Friend  23:34  
I did find the dwarf giraffe story very interesting.

Simon Minty  23:39  
You didn't like it?. 

Phil Friend  23:41  
Well, I read it in the context that this was unusual. I've read it a bit like discovering a new breed of ant

Simon Minty  23:49  
It doesn't count unless someone likes it. I don't exist. 

Phil Friend  23:52  
Oh, you mean you? Oh, yeah. 

Simon Minty  23:54  
Likes my tweet

Phil Friend  23:55  
Oh, you its always about you?

Simon Minty  23:57  
Social media if you don't like it, I don't exist. There's no point in me posting anymore. I coming off it (giggling)

Announcer  24:05  
This is The Way We Roll hosted by Simon Minty and Phil Friend.

Simon Minty  24:10  
New subjects. Abbi, hope you're happy. We're making it clear. It's a new subject. And I would love to know what's going on in your garden. Phil.

Phil Friend  24:18  
(Laughter) This is kind of a running theme, isn't it? It's a bit like your place in the top 100. It's a theme we keep returning to my parakeets keep being returned to Well, now. Firstly, listener, there are still parakeets causing me serious grief and sleepless nights. And I am still taking pot shots way above their heads, I have to say to frighten them away. What's been happening more recently is that there has been a lot of publicity around parakeets at a national level they are now, in fact, on the Broadcasting House programme on Radio Four on Sunday mornings if you haven't listened to it, those of you who have a similar mind to me You ought to it's very good, Paddy  O'Connell Anyway, they did a feature on parakeets. And apparently, they're everywhere and a listener rang in and said that they'd seen them in Aberdeen. They've seen them in Wales. They've seen them in the West Country down in Cornwall all over the place. They're getting everywhere. So now, it has been recognised that they might need culling a formal cull of parakeets, 

Simon Minty  25:40  
And Phil is at the front of the queue. 

Phil Friend  25:46  
Do you know, I'm not sure that I would sleep easy in my bed. If I actually shot one. If I'm being really honest, I'm not into doing that, really. But they are a bloody nuisance. And it and what the listeners who talked on the Broadcasting House show said or wrote in about was, it isn't that they're magnificent birds. It's the blooming noise. They are so noisy. So I just thought I'd update listeners on the fact that I'm now officially a culler. And I will be moving amongst the parakeet community with a very large gun. What I think is happening is they've got wind of this now and they tend to as soon as I appear at my doors on the patio the takeoff. I don't even get near my gun before they've gone.

Simon Minty  26:38  
And this was started last summer, I think wasn't it and they were driving you to distraction. You were threatening to get a gun and start shooting them. You got the gun, you start taking a few Yeah, you shoot over them.

Phil Friend  26:48  
I don't ever shoot at them. No. And then and it works. There's a bang, it's an air rifle. So it's not a dangerous thing in that sense. There's a bang and they all scarper. They run for cover.

Simon Minty  27:01  
And they associate fear with you coming out now

Phil Friend  27:06  
They see me and the gun is kept safely in position near my door so I can, but it takes by the time I've loaded it and got it sort of ready? They've all gone. they've eaten lunch at someone else's house.

Simon Minty  27:20  
Do not have it locked and loaded under your pillow at night

Phil Friend  27:23  
No, no, I'm scared that I'd shoot myself it would go off.

Simon Minty  27:29  
Poor old Sue gets a pellet in her leg

Phil Friend  27:32  
Sue looks at this whole drama with that kind of look of despair on her face "he's off again".

Simon Minty  27:40  
Do you feel vindicated? I don't think we can spend an hour on this. 

Phil Friend  27:43  
I feel honoured to have brought this to the public's attention.

Simon Minty  27:47  
Do you feel vindicated? The fact that this is a nationwide issue and Radio Four are reporting on it?

Phil Friend  27:52  
I think what you and I should take enormous credit for this. The Way We Roll has clearly brought this to the forefront of the nation's attention is being picked up by BBC Radio for even the RSPB don't appear to be saying they shouldn't be culled. How do you cull them maybe what they do is steal their eggs or something.

Simon Minty  28:15  
No, you shoot them, don't you?. 

Phil Friend  28:16  
Yeah, I know. But you could do other things like you could disrupt nests so they can't procreate. It'd be a long programme. I think parakeets can live for years like parrots

Simon Minty  28:26  
I know I don't live with a garden and don't have this is a terrible blight on my life. Is it just noise? Is that the only thing?

Phil Friend  28:38  
No it's not just noise is noise when you get 30 or 40 of these birds in a tree in your garden or in your road you know it they're very noisy it's also that they mob the mob so they come in in large groups and they eat all the bird food. I feel that's very selfish of them I think you know what about the poor old Bluetit and the Longtail tit and the little you know, upside-down bird the Nuthatch. Nuthatches are beautiful little things they hang upside down to eat. These parakeets arrive and that's it

Simon Minty  29:13  
It's like they're bird terrorists. It's what I'm hearing

Phil Friend  29:16  
They are a bit like that. It's a bit like storming the Capitol.

Simon Minty  29:19  
Yeah. You know, they're

Phil Friend  29:21  
in there and they just don't care, waving their flags and their shiny bills and beaks with the, you know, red and green and Confederate flags everywhere. That's what they're about.

Simon Minty  29:32  
And they were incited by some the principal parakeet.

Phil Friend  29:38  
Yes. they were. Anyway, I've impeached them with a gun.

Announcer  29:43  
This is The Way We Roll hosted by Simon Minty and Phil Friend.

Simon Minty  29:47  
You are one of the Chosen Few. You've had your vaccinations we mentioned at the top of the show. Have you started thinking about life after we've all been vaccinated?

Phil Friend  29:57  
Well, I have actually, but I haven't kind of got as I was thinking, what what you might think and what the listeners might think about as we as the population becomes vaccinated and it's, therefore, the lockdowns and so on getting eased. What are the things that we suspect will never go back to normal? I was wondering what you know, what the world will look like after this. And I think we've talked about this I mean, work is an obvious one, where people won't be driving to go to an hour-long meeting so much and, and stuff like that. But I wonder what other changes there would be whether you have got thoughts? I mean, my thought would be I'm not a big I know you are I'm not a big theatre, cinema you know, visitor, I like them both. And I do go occasionally. But even I who don't do it much have really missed that. The crowds I mean, football matches I, you know, like you we both like football, and we watch it on TV and stuff. It is very weird not to have people there. It is extraordinarily odd. So I'm really looking forward to that going back to how it was but I don't miss crowd violence. I don't miss crowd drunkenness. I don't miss, you know, that kind of dark side of some of that. That comes What What about you, I mean, going being able to go and see live events has to be something you're looking forward to.

Simon Minty  31:29  
And I, I feel we've done stuff around this, we did the with Geoff and Jane Campbell and Joanna, the things that you would keep the post in one of our shows last summer. And I even think we touched on this in our new §years when we were saying no more driving everywhere, getting caught in traffic jams, all those things that were good from the year. When you were talking, I'm going to slightly spin it off. Rather than that, I can't wait to have that bit back. I saw an article from I think she's a woman who said getting food during lockdowns has been so difficult, I cannot wait, which go back to me getting those little treats that I could get from the coffee shop, to be able to shop four times a week rather than just once and have to get it not to have to plan every meal way in advance because I've got to cook it, prepare it and so on. Whereas before I could sort of rock and roll. And I think there's something interesting about that. I reduced my shopping, food shopping to once a week, maybe twice if I needed to top me up. And I do think way ahead. I'm thinking four or five days ahead. I'm thinking that dates. I didn't use to do that. Now. Is it because I've lost weight? And I'm dieting or is it because COVID has forced that when I go to the shop below me the Marks and  Spencer's they say haven't seen you for ages. And I go Yeah, I'm trying to do it less. So there's this very, we had a very convenient lifestyle. Everything is there. You just roll up you assume you buy it on the fly. And that's all been slowed down. So I'm wondering, will I enjoy some of that freedom that comes back to be able to do things when I want how I want including something as basic as food shopping.

Phil Friend  33:21  
It sounds like the idea of impromptu. Yeah, it is impromptu, but the proper expression on the spur of the moment. I fancy some jelly babies, go down and get some, you know, just a moment where you suddenly feel an urge to do something and you can do it. We've not been able to do that we've had to You're right, there's been a lot of planning and thinking ahead. But one of the things that for example, we've been doing, and I think we will continue to do is there's a firm that sells all the ingredients you need for a meal, and they send it to your house and you and everything's there. I mean everything there, the carrots, the lentils, whatever. And Sue who does most of the catering has really quite enjoyed that because these are meals she wouldn't normally cook, she wouldn't normally have the ingredients. And we've agreed that we're going to carry on with that. That'll be something we would keep up whether we do it as much. So there's been some quite positive things of that sort. But yes, being unpredictable, just doing stuff because you felt like it.

Simon Minty  34:30  
It's what every Tinder profile you'll ever come across. The female says I want someone who's spontaneous. Yeah. And it is hard to be spontaneous in the current setup, and I think it slowed things down and I like that. I hope. I mean, I will be going out socialising again and I cannot wait to see so many people. But I also hope when I stay in, it won't bother me anymore. Not that it was a big thing. But you know, sometimes staying in on Saturday night you go, the world's having a great time fear of missing out. And now go No, no, this is great. Enjoy it.

Phil Friend  35:09  
Yeah, we've learned maybe we've learned to enjoy our own company more, particularly for people in your situation where you're on your own a lot of the time. In my case, it's a couple of things. But yeah, being, feeling that being home is good.

Simon Minty  35:25  
Yes, I work on the affirmative model, and I'm sorry, on my own. It is the best thing being on my own.

Phil Friend  35:32  
I'm glad to hear that because I was pitying you.

Simon Minty  35:35  
Exactly. That's why I got in there quick.

Phil Friend  35:37  
Yeah. Well, I noticed

Simon Minty  35:38  
Back off!  Don't you set up a charity for me?

Phil Friend  35:43  
The Stay at Homes? Yeah. Well, let's see how things develop. I suppose the test is what but you know, I've had my vaccine, but it hasn't made any difference. When you have yours and all the people that have needed, you know, in the 40s and 30s. have got it, then we'll see whether

Simon Minty  35:58  
You are a trailblazer as ever, but we'll catch up with you, don't we then? I thought April, I might think July now. I don't know. 

Phil Friend  36:09  
You haven't mentioned trips and holidays. You're a big global trotter fan, aren't you? You haven't done any of that for over a year? Are you looking for being serious? Are you looking forward to being able to travel again, not there up the road in your car?

Simon Minty  36:25  
And I suppose back to the same thing of spontaneity every time I get an airline who say we've got a sale? I'm not confident enough to book the tickets yet. But of course, I am I. Yeah, I suspect also, I may well do a couple of trips on my own. Whereas used to I'd always grab someone and say, Let's go together. I just the idea of going to Berlin or to Amsterdam, we can do that so easily, except for Brexit. 

Phil Friend  36:55  
What about the green issues associated with global travel? Does that bother you? Um, it's a serious question. Because I think one of the benefits of COVID has been that we haven't been flying everywhere. So we've been less polluting. But does that play any tunes for you yet? Or is that still

Simon Minty  37:17  
There's big research. Now the FT did a whole lot of research around this, which I can't quote properly but there was this distinction between business travel and people funding certain things and then the travel for pleasure. Yeah, I if I'm honest, I don't know yet. I probably will overkill it to begin with and do five trips because I can again, and then I'll go, you're being a daft one here. Just modify and ease up and you know, be aware of always with these things. I think you should do what you can and you should be aware of, and you should modify and reduce. And I do that on lots of levels. But yeah, it's not going to stop me travelling.

Phil Friend  37:56  
No, I just think I mean, what's been interesting hasn't it has been the numbers of people who've stayed staycations where they've, they've stayed in the UK, they've gone to certain different places. And one of the great things you often hear people say are there's so much to see in our country I don't know why I don't Well, we've had the opportunities on and off over the last year to do just that. So you know, one way we can contribute, I suppose to the climate change debate is by travelling less in some way but still travelling to places where

Simon Minty  38:29  
I'll tell you about one trip I'm having is definitely the guilt trip. Thanks for that. 

Phil Friend  38:36  
Well, that doesn't pollute anything. Your guilt trip is pollution-free.

Simon Minty  38:41  
It pollutes my heart.

Phil Friend  38:42  
Yes, very true. Well, let's I mean, when we get to shows in April, May June, let's see how things are. We'll have to keep an eye on 

Simon Minty  38:51  
I'll be reporting in from Berlin and Amsterdam. Thank you listener a bit meandary. We hope you enjoyed it and do write drop us a line. I have forgotten our email address.

Phil Friend  39:09  
mintyandfriend@gmail.com is our email address.

Simon Minty  39:11  
be lovely to hear from you.

Phil Friend  39:13  
Take it easy, Simon. See you soon.

Simon Minty  39:15  
Take care. Bye, everybody.

Announcer  39:18  
This is The Way We Roll presented by Simon Minty and Phil Friend. You can email us at mintyandfriend@gmail.com or just search for Minty and Friend on social media. We're on Facebook, Twitter, and LinkedIn

Transcribed by https://otter.ai