The Way We Roll

Get Up, Stand Up for Your Rights (and micro-aggressions)

September 24, 2021 Simon Minty and Phil Friend
Get Up, Stand Up for Your Rights (and micro-aggressions)
The Way We Roll
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The Way We Roll
Get Up, Stand Up for Your Rights (and micro-aggressions)
Sep 24, 2021
Simon Minty and Phil Friend

Delivering training on disability means you get some excellent questions on the subject. A colleague of ours was recently asked, ‘Is impotence a disability under the Equality Act?’ We try and work it out by exploring the impact and then ask, what sort of discrimination might arise to see a case?

After last month’s hugely popular show about the word Ableism we move to another relatively new term - microaggressions. Defined as ‘an indirect, subtle or unintentional form of discrimination, we ponder when to let it slide and when do you tackle it? We wonder what might be the impact on someone after a 1000 of these?

WeThe15 campaign launched recently. Their website states, ‘WeThe15 is sport’s biggest ever human rights movement to end discrimination…of the world’s 1.2 billion persons with disabilities who represent 15% of the global population.’ Phil has some doubts, what is different, what change will come about or is it another campaign that lights up the sky before fading? Or as Simon suggests, is this is what’s needed, constant wheel-reinvention to keep the agenda moving forward?

Geoff tells us about two of his current favourites - The White Lotus and Have You Heard George’s Podcast? We round off with a bumper Listeners Corner. Maybe we mention you? Take a listen via the link below. 


Erectile dysfunction (impotence) defined

Micro-agressions Wiki

There are many blogs that explore this subject well. Have a search and read. Here’s one from the BBC on language.


The White Lotus on Sky 

The White Lotus IMDB

Have You Heard George’s Podcast? George the Poet

Show Notes Transcript Chapter Markers

Delivering training on disability means you get some excellent questions on the subject. A colleague of ours was recently asked, ‘Is impotence a disability under the Equality Act?’ We try and work it out by exploring the impact and then ask, what sort of discrimination might arise to see a case?

After last month’s hugely popular show about the word Ableism we move to another relatively new term - microaggressions. Defined as ‘an indirect, subtle or unintentional form of discrimination, we ponder when to let it slide and when do you tackle it? We wonder what might be the impact on someone after a 1000 of these?

WeThe15 campaign launched recently. Their website states, ‘WeThe15 is sport’s biggest ever human rights movement to end discrimination…of the world’s 1.2 billion persons with disabilities who represent 15% of the global population.’ Phil has some doubts, what is different, what change will come about or is it another campaign that lights up the sky before fading? Or as Simon suggests, is this is what’s needed, constant wheel-reinvention to keep the agenda moving forward?

Geoff tells us about two of his current favourites - The White Lotus and Have You Heard George’s Podcast? We round off with a bumper Listeners Corner. Maybe we mention you? Take a listen via the link below. 


Erectile dysfunction (impotence) defined

Micro-agressions Wiki

There are many blogs that explore this subject well. Have a search and read. Here’s one from the BBC on language.


The White Lotus on Sky 

The White Lotus IMDB

Have You Heard George’s Podcast? George the Poet

Announcer  0:00  
Welcome to the Way We Roll with Simon Minty and Phil Friend.

Simon Minty  0:16  
Hello and welcome to The Way We Roll with me Simon Minty.

Phil Friend  0:20  
And me, Phil Friend,

Simon Minty  0:21  
if you are a new listener after our one last month on ableism welcome. Thank you. This is the more typical show where Phil and I sit down and talk about things all disability and beyond that are interesting to us. Are you ready?

Phil Friend  0:37  
Hopefully interesting to them.

Simon Minty  0:39  
Good point . Stay with us.

Phil Friend  0:42  
Don't forget the listener Simon they're  important. .

Simon Minty  0:45  
Good point And we have three subjects for you today, it will be fairly rapid fire. I was sitting with a good friend, she is involved in equality and diversity issues. And sort of out the blue. she'd done an event on disability and someone in the audience who is from another country said is impotence, a disability under the law, she was explaining the law. The Equality Act here says you have a disability if you've got physical or mental impairment that has a long term, substantial adverse effect on your ability to carry out day to day activities.

Phil Friend  1:24  
I'm guessing sex is a normal. I don't know if it's an everyday occurrence. But it's certainly a normal day to day.

Simon Minty  1:31  
Describe that definition has varied slightly. I see different people drop things like substantial. I've seen people drop long term and I've seen adverse even dropped which is quite interesting. 

Phil Friend  1:43  
Is that still in the statute. 

Simon Minty  1:45  
Yes, exactly. Well, I think it is, I think it is not the we do research, dear listener. 

Phil Friend  1:51  
No we don't bother!

Simon Minty  1:53  
You can check that out anyway yourselves. But so your argument Mr. Friend, is it is a normal day to day activity but hold up impotence isn't having sex, impotence is

Phil Friend  2:07  
It is precursor it would be for men who have a problem maintaining erections, then that would prevent them or could certainly inhibit their ability to have sex, I would argue, I'm not speaking from a personal point of view, but I am?

Simon Minty  2:24  
Can I, I don't want to go there. Can I say it again? We know a good friend, Mick, Scarlet, he has sex with his partner. He has a spinal cord injury through cancer. He says he doesn't have intercourse. So your definition of sex is kind of a bit broad and a bit or no, it's a bit narrow, isn't it? 

Phil Friend  2:44  
Oh, God. Yes. Or I hadn't thought about those who had spinal cord injuries in my intuitive response to your question? No, of course, there are all sorts of ways of having sex. Yeah, absolutely. Totally 100%. I'm thinking about people who are able to have an erection and are aware of it. And for whatever reason, some of them very obviously, physical reasons, or they have psychiatric or, you know, emotional issues that may be prevent them maintaining an erection. And I think for men, you know, this is one of those subjects where people laugh a lot. Actually, it ain't funny, to be honest. And I think people who are managing this will, you know, we've all been through all of the viagra jokes, and all that kind of stuff. I don't mean that there isn't a place for humor in all of this stuff. But I do think sometimes, when somebody is really trying to manage something like this, it doesn't do them much favor to have someone like me laugh me head off.

Simon Minty  3:46  
And no, I'm still going back to, if we look at our definition of physical definitely could be mental or long term. As in, this isn't just, I mean, it's could be what I call sporadic in the sense of

Phil Friend  4:01  
Could be temporary. If the doctor said, the reason you've got this is because you had surgery and it will come back, then you'd say, well, it's not going to last longer than 12 months. So therefore,

Simon Minty  4:12  
Definitely adverse effect if that's your thing, um, and substantial?

Phil Friend  4:18  
Well, I'd of the thought that for those who have to manage this condition, it's on their minds an awful lot. And for them, at least, it's having a substantial effect.

Simon Minty  4:32  
I think so if you were to

Phil Friend  4:34  
might damage, you know, a relationship with a partner.

Simon Minty  4:39  
I think it's definitely substantial. So we're sort of saying it, the bit that I was then gonna try and work out, which I said to my friend is, give me I want a circumstance where someone might need to take a case because they've been discriminated against because they can't, now would be very specific, the impotence means they can't maintain an erection. And then I started getting accidentally silly, but it's that kind of would this be someone who works in a certain industry, for example? And, you know, I'm talking porn star or something like that, or sex worker or something? Yeah, I suppose there's differences, you could have a disability under the legislation doesn't mean to say we're going to see a case about it. But is can you think of a case where someone might go? Well, I've been treated less favorably?

Phil Friend  5:27  
No, but I think you've introduced the dynamics of sex workers or porn, porn actors in porn, films and so on, where it's a critical part of their job to maintain an erection, I'm guessing, and if they can't, they're dismissed, and then they claim unfair dismissal. Maybe I think that's an interesting angle. I can't stop thinking about the blind guys who brought an action in a local authority when they wanted to touch they said they couldn't see the strippers at a strip club. And they wanted to touch them a tactile sort of thing. And the local authorities said they had bylaws about this. I think they lost, didn't they? But it was a great effort. I mean, I did admire that.

Simon Minty  6:11  
I wonder, 

Phil Friend  6:12  
Serious Interesting. I hadn't thought of that. Simon

Simon Minty  6:16  
15 years later, do you think they would still take a case? Or would that be considered pretty bad? 

Phil Friend  6:21  
What blind people? 

Simon Minty  6:22  
Yeah, I wonder whether social norms have rapidly changed and that it was almost the the women who were the strippers, I think this wasn't offensive. This was let's test what the law really does?

Phil Friend  6:33  
Well, if my memory serves, and my memory is very famously bad now. I remember I think the strippers didn't mind. They weren't worried about touching them. They took no offense to this, but the owner of the club said, though, there was a bylaw about this. You don't remember this. But there used to be a club in London, one of the very first ever strip clubs and it was only allowed to operate if the models didn't move. So they had to be in poses the Windmill, it was the Windmill, and they had the first naked

Simon Minty  7:07  
That came to you quite quickly did'nt it. 

Phil Friend  7:09  
Yeah. It didn't it I was searching. It's an interesting question. And what and I think the condition of impotence is something that needs like, you know, prostates for men and things like this, there are a number of issues that don't get talked about colostomys, you know, anything to do with the digestive system somehow gets all we can't talk about that. But we ought to, because it's difficult. 

Simon Minty  7:37  
The fact that the women in that case, were okay with it, and maybe the local authority saying no, but you're, you're delivering a different service now. And it goes into a whole other realms of appropriateness. Now, I believe also, it's not it was around that time that they found that 85% of the people went there all bought white canes, so they could all have a little touch, which I'm joking. Now, that was a joke. But people pretending to be blind, because they,

Phil Friend  8:03  
Well that was one of the spoofs, we all said, you know, we were going to go along there with with dark glasses on and white sticks.

Simon Minty  8:10  
And I remember some years ago, after going out for some drinks with friends, and then suddenly, I found myself at a place called the Griffin, in London, which is a strip club, it's a pub, they used to do the dance, then they would pass a pint glass around and you put money in it. And I obviously put money in it, but the reality was, it was standing room only. I'm three foot 10 I couldn't see anything. So for a joke I mentioned to somebody, well, are you I'm paying money, but I can't see anything Oh the whole room opened up. Like Moses, I was pushed to the front. And then the four ladies who were dancing, taking their clothes off, did it deliberately right in front of me. It was the most horrific, horrible, excruciating. 10 minutes of my life. I couldn't bear it. I couldn't wait to get back to the anonymity of the crowd. It was awful. It was no pleasure in it whatsoever. I mean, good on them. And I'm glad they made the adjustment and all the inclusion boxes were ticked, but goodness me, you do not want to be wekll I didnt.

Phil Friend  9:21  
that's never happened to me. I've been to strip clubs when I was young, I think some kind of almost rite of passage for a 16 year old bloke to go along and see this, but um,

Simon Minty  9:34  
yeah. Okay. So we think it probably is, under the definition as it stands in the UK. What we don't have is a potential case and we'd be interested to see where someone might need to use the legislation.

Phil Friend  9:48  
The only other thing I would throw into the mix is that thankfully, for many people, this is a curable condition. So in that case, it probably wouldn't qualify because it you know, it's fixed. 

Simon Minty  10:00  
It's Pele. 

Phil Friend  10:01  

Simon Minty  10:02  
Footballer Pele.

Phil Friend  10:03  
Oh, what's that got to do with this? 

Simon Minty  10:06  
He was famously impotent, and then did a big campaign about raising awareness and

Phil Friend  10:11  
so famous I didn't hear that

Simon Minty  10:12  
later in his life. And then I think he's been involved in promoting drugs and the Viagras  and stuff like that over the world. Okay. Interesting. Good to Kinvara. Yeah,

Phil Friend  10:22  
You are a font of knowledge anything to do with impotence and you're the leading expert

Simon Minty  10:27  
Pele would always score I just made that up.

Announcer  10:32  
This is the way we roll presented by Simon Minty and Phil Friend, you can email us at Mintyand, or just search for Minty and Friend on social media. We're on Facebook, Twitter, and LinkedIn.

Phil Friend  10:46  
We Are 15 I'd be surprised if our listener hadn't heard of this, because there's been a lot of stuff out there in the media and some but but essentially what's happened is a number of international organizations have launched a campaign called We the 15. And it's the biggest they claim it's the biggest ever human rights movement thingy, representing 1.2 billion persons with disabilities. It's an amalgam of all sorts of organizations that are to do with sports, employment, theatre, arts, entertainment, you name it, they're there. And it's a combination between the International Paralympic Committee IPC and the International Disability Alliance Ida will obviously put this up on the site. So people can look at this. And they are forming a coalition to campaign over the next decade. So they've set a target of by 2030, I believe it is, as they put it, to initiate change for the world's largest marginalized group, who make up 15% of the global population. Very briefly, their objectives, their aims are putting person disability at the heart of diversity and inclusion, implementing a range of activities, pardon my dogs barking so its only my dog having a bark, a range of activities targeting government, businesses, and the public to drive social inclusion for persons with disabilities breaking down societal and systemic, systemic barriers, ensuring greater awareness, visibility and representation and promoting the role of assistive technology as a vehicle to drive social inclusion. Sorry, that's a very long explanation.

Simon Minty  12:39  
And I my only  bit. I can see sports organizations, I can see the UN and UNESCO and valuable 500 and stuff. There is one called talent I didn't think there was a lot of artistic creative people in there is there.

Phil Friend  12:52  
I don't think there is but there is mention of it and the IDC's are. It's the International Disability Consortium. And obviously each country provides disability representation to that body. Yeah. The EDF? I think it's the European Disability Forum, isn't it? Which Britain belongs to and so on. But interestingly, Brexit I don't know if that's changed that but but anyway, the reason I raised it was not to say anything other than this is clearly should be a helpful thing to do. But I just wonder, what, what again, it's a bit like we talked about with the ambassadors thing, what difference will it actually make? I don't know, what's your take on this? I just, I just read it and thought, another one its another initiative

Simon Minty  13:43  
Well, and if you go through them individually, you'll realize a lot of them had they've had their own individual initiatives. The zero projects, one where you know, a world with zero barriers, which if they've all got common aims, which is removal of barriers or inclusion of disabled people, or whatever it may be, you know, variable 500 got their own, it's got to be the board that must start talking about this as a subject. There is Paralympics and Special Olympics and Invictus Games is interesting seeing those three together the Innovation Hub, I take your point, and I think it's they've had a huge launch. I mean, that's no two ways about it. I do think I spoke to a few people. And they were saying to me, they want me to be like the extinction rebellion. They want it to be on the front page of a newspaper for two weeks throughout the Paralympics. And I think it's one of those you sort of know what their aims are, but do it their aims are obvious what what I'm always saying is, well, what are they doing then? Because it is back to that raising awareness. Brilliant. Everyone's been raising awareness for millions of years. It's what's the action? What's the deal that

Phil Friend  14:52  
I think that's at the nub of it? it for me, it feels like I hope somebody writes to us and says, No, no, no, you'll very wrong about this Phil because I think it's a talking shop. I think it's another talking shop, I think many of the forums, get together, have earnest conversations, talk about all the things that are wrong, etc, etc. but very little changes. And they do set up to be fair, they do set up projects, and they do run schemes to try and change things. But it's it I, the thing that worries me is it's a big, big bureaucracy

Simon Minty  15:34  
But I always think they will diverting 10% of their turnover to this, you know, one hub that sets you up, is it I'm thinking of people like the RADAR, and the other two that merged to become Disability Rights UK is this early days to kind of say there might be is there 16 organizations I counted, could end up being eight of them, when they start going, this is daft, we would be much stronger together as one,

Phil Friend  16:01  
Well I was part of the merger became DRUK and it went very well. And it was fairly painless. But it took a long time. And it was difficult in some areas. I mean, by that I mean, we were all willing partners. Bringing together this lot and merging it oh dear me. I don't, I don't

Simon Minty  16:22  
That  isn’t the aim. I mean, they come together to organize this organization. And I welcomed it, because you do. The thing we need to remember is this is international, this is around the world. So we might kind of sit here and go, Oh, yeah, we're in the UK, we will this but this is there's a whole load of countries that this will be revolutionary, or could be very different. And it could be really moving the dial that we're not aware of. 

Phil Friend  16:49  
That's where I think you're nailing an important point which is we in the West, or we in the civilized in quote, quote, civilized world, 

Simon Minty  16:59  
You in Hertfordshire,

Phil Friend  17:00  
Me in sunny, leafy Hertfordshire. If this makes a big difference to disabled people, in villages in Africa, or in India, or you know, wherever, then yes, that that has to be welcomed. Of course it does. Because we forget, and we I put my life again, we I forget that the rest of the world, your COVID has exposed just how difficult it is for some people. With a lack of medical care and all that stuff. We become incredibly complacent in the UK. So if this changes that mindset, then there's something there's definitely something good about that. I agree with you.

Simon Minty  17:42  
It's always a very interesting, I think of how far can social media and campaigning go? Because I know, I don't know about you, but I was getting emails a couple of months ago saying, will you be part of this? Will you write stuff out there? Will you promote it? And I was thinking, well, they're good. They're already they've got a brilliant campaign. They're already getting people on board. We knew on launch day, they were on the today programme, and they were doing this, that's BBC Radio four, that's big stuff to get a slot there. And again, but if they weren't meant to be extinction, rebellion, they got to start changing themselves, they got to start getting a bit radical. Someone close friends of mine is involved in PR marketing said, Well, they've kind of messed up but because anything under 70% no one's interested in. So saying where the 15% people go. Also, what were the 85? In our previous show with Professor Campbell, she was saying, Be careful of the " them and us" you are separating yourselves, you're making yourself different from other people. Is that what you want to do? Or is it more about similarity and we become the We Are The 100. I said there's some really interesting fundamental bits underneath that about how far this will go and traction. But I again, I always applaud this stuff, there is always the risk of

Phil Friend  19:00  
I'd like to see what what they do next year on their anniversary, and they tell us what progress they've made what they've been able to achieve in that year. And if there are positive stories coming out of that, then good for them. I'm not having a go at it. I'm not saying it shouldn't happen. I'm just saying. We've got with you and I spent half our lives talking. few times we demo'd that mainly it's talking. We have changed things to be fair the world is not the place It was 20 or 30 years ago.

Simon Minty  19:30  
But I this is why I would support it. Absolutely it. I suppose what we do know is sometimes it's incremental. It's slow, incremental change rather than the revolution we all want. And I'm not saying it shouldn't be a revolution but that's the way sometimes the world is to change power.

Announcer  19:45  
This is The Way We Roll with Simon Minty and Phil Friend.

Simon Minty  19:50  
Another section. For you Abby, keep up. This is about micro aggressions micro assaults If in case you don't know what they are here, and if you are a disabled person or person with long term health condition, here's some examples that I use when I had to make a presentation very recently. The reason I'm just going to list them is then I have a big question. So it's not really what they are is what we do. So this is a micro aggression might be an indirect, subtle or unintentional form of discrimination on disability. So you're in a wheelchair. "Oh, you are a Paralympian", you have to put a silly voice on. "Oh, what's the top speed of that, then" or "mind my feet"! And you go to your boss and go, I've got to go to the doctor. and they go "really another appointment". And it's this little ebbing away little drip, drip, drip, "but you don't look disabled". Or "I never think of you as being disabled". Or "I don't like that word disabled. I think you're differently abled", oh, "I couldn't cope. If I were like you". "You're inspirational". And the one I get with my scooter, "Oh, I wish I had one of them". And I answer Well, you could buy one, they're not exclusive to me go out and buy the mug and give you the website. If you're like me, they know where to go. Anyway, my question is a 1000 of them will hit you. It's a constant reminder, a constant push. How do we balance the ones where we can just let it go? Smile about it. It doesn't really mean anything. The person who said it didn't not only was unintentional, but actually they're in a good place. And they're an ally. But how do you distinguish the good ones? the bad ones, the ones to?

Phil Friend  21:36  
Well, I suppose the first thing is, how am I feeling when I hear it? So if I'm really annoyed at that moment, and they say something like that, I might say piss off. Yes, I swore. Pardon me listener. That doesn't happen very often, though, to be honest, I think what I'm really interested in is intent intention, what is going on here? If it's the line where clearly they're not sure how to start a conversation, supposing it's a stranger, we're at something we're at a gathering,  I'm close to somebody who's and they say to me, hello, you know, what, who are you and stuff? And and then they say, Oh, do you have a license for that? I kind of see it as their attempt at an icebreaker really. And I probably ignore it. In fact, if I were working with the disabled person, who was really, really, really kind of fed up with this kind of stuff, and weighed down by it, I think my attempt would be to try and help them reframe it. So they think they learn how to ignore it.

Simon Minty  22:42  
Let me just clarify, I when you said ignore it, that is an active event, because in all the way you said it was not your what you the way I interpret that you said what I've decided is I'm not going to nail them to the wall and tell them they're a knob. That's why I think that's very different. Just saying ignoring it, because you can ignore it and go Aha, yeah, of course, I got a license or actually don't even I think you the way you said that is this is annoyed me is their opening gambit, what you're saying is I'm not going to tell him off for it.

Phil Friend  23:13  
Well, or I forgive them. I don't I don't rise to it.  I don't I don't challenge you. I don't because I can't. It's a bit like if I went down every street, noticing how many dropped curbs there weren't. I spend the rest of my life just spotting the lack of dropped curbs. I mean, there was more to life than micro aggressions. I think, however, if you are being affected by this, and it's stopping you from processing, and establishing yourself or coming over in a positive way, then I think you do have to challenge it. Yeah. What I'm in the personal development stuff, Simon, that you and I know so well. What I'm trying to help a disabled person do in that situation is to find other ways of managing one of which is to say, I'm not going to rise to this, you know, I'm just going to put it in my back pocket and forget about it.

Simon Minty  24:03  
Yeah. So although that that person who said it, they don't realize that the next two minutes, you're probably not going to be the most warm person as that conversation opens up you're a bit frosty, and there won't go on when I was on there, because I've been

Phil Friend  24:17  
that may be that there's a later if that, I suppose. It's an interesting point, if there's an opportunity for me at some point later on with them to say, by the way, you know, when we met and you said so and so that didn't really press any buttons for me. I just but I don't want to hurt your feelings, but I just thought it'd be helpful for you to know that because I've established something with them to enable me now to say what you did to start with wasn't very helpful for them to just round on them and say, Excuse me, do you know I've heard that joke 400 times a day. And I'm the last wheelchair user they'll ever speak to. Or I fear that they would go Oh, Christ. I can't deal with this or bloody wheelchair users that confirms what I've always known about them is that I do have I do feel a dual responsibility, in a sense,

Simon Minty  25:14  
by the way, I will give you my point of view. And I'm playing devil's advocate. But that means you have to spend your whole life being an ambassador for wheelchair users and taking these things on the chin while they just drip drip drip at you be like, well, I can't be horrible to them, although they've been horrible to me, because they might be horrible to the next wheelchair user.

Phil Friend  25:36  
But in my case, I have to say this do and I'm sure you know, this, I'm impervious to this stuff. It doesn't I don't even notice it all the time. I used to when I ran an approved school, I used to say to the graffiti kids, the kids that love daubing stuff on walls, I used to say to them, would you mind coming up with something I haven't read before? If you do, it stays on the wall. Anything else is swept off. So somebody comes up to me and makes a really original crack about wheelchair using. I'm impressed, because I've not heard that before. But mostly me and you is a scooter user we've heard it all before. And and for some people, it is a drip, drip and it is driving them insane. You know,

Simon Minty  26:20  
I think the the conditioning, your experiences, my experiences, the next gen I think the next generation are less forgiving. I think this is a I don't remember talking about microaggressions before. Now these were just the things that were part of the deal. You chose whether you responded to it, you chose whether you flip it off or not. And as you've already alluded to, it depended on how you felt that day could also affect the and also context if you're some big event around disability, you may give it a little bit more slack. Because you know, this is about getting people on board compared to someone in the supermarket who has nothing to do with you.

Phil Friend  26:58  
But it is following what Fiona Campbell said in our previous show about the us and them and the dangers of that, and about maintaining dialogue. So it's kind of trying to engage with this person who said these things to say why that isn't helpful, and what options there might be instead of rather than "you bastard don't you dare say that to me".

Simon Minty  27:22  
I agree with you. Although I'm kind of tiring isn't it

Phil Friend  27:25  
Yes of course it is. Yeah. Nobody said it wasn't I mean, but but you can choose Of course you can to not do any of it. Just ignore it.

Simon Minty  27:34  
I I wear headphones when I'm out and about shopping locally, so I'm oblivious to anything that's going on. And I quite like that. Although sometimes there's a problem when someone is like who wants to speak to me and I just ignore them. Because I've been tired recently, I've noticed when I scoot past a group of people. It happened about 10 times yesterday when I was on the Southbank. And as I scoot past I hear big laughter and it's that classic of I don't know they laugh in a middle aged short bloke on a scooter or has someone cracked a funny? The issue I've got is it happens so often. That it's very hard for me to go Oh, hang on. This is coincidence. Every time I go past the group, someone has been the wittiest ever. I also you can double check. You can see if there's furtive glances, you can see if people nudge each other. So there's all these little clues. And that stuff isn't probably a microaggression. That's out and out horrible thing to do. And I'm curious about it. I'm sort of those are these little bits of me tired of being the the ambassador. Equally. There's also the flipside, if you do give someone you tear them apart for doing it afterwards, do I feel better? I probably don't, I probably feel even worse than I did before. The bit. I do agree with you. And I wonder whether this is part of condition and experience and exposure. Most of these things you forget about. It might hit you for 10 minutes, but it disappears. Fiona Campbell's bit is a lifetime of this may hit you and you don't realize.

Phil Friend  29:11  
Yeh that I get so so one of the things that Fiona talked about and I very much support is the idea of us being together. Disabled people coming together to share this. So you and I talking about your incidents in the shopping mall. Where people are you you're almost certainly right about they're laughing at you. 

Simon Minty  29:34  
Oh come on they're not are they?

Phil Friend  29:35  
Yeah. Well, you are funny, you see so it could be they're laughing at you because they think you're incredibly witty.

Simon Minty  29:43  
But I haven't said anything!

Phil Friend  29:45  
but it's just your whole demeanor yours. You're a silent comic. You're a Buster Keaton or a Charlie Chaplin. That's who you really are Simon you've got to own up to this. No, but being serious when you've had I was with you on one occasion. where it was very clear group of children were laughing and mocking and all that. And I was bloody furious. You said to me, No, leave it alone now. I think having being part of that with you, talking to you about it afterwards, I hope helped you kind of position it. And I hope it helped me too, because you were saying to me,

Simon Minty  30:22  
I think it helped you more I mean, I suppose 

Phil Friend  30:24  
maybe, maybe it did. 

Simon Minty  30:25  
But there is an interesting point that's 25 years ago, well, 20 years ago when that happened, remember, and you still do. I mean, I, I only remember because you tell me about it. But that will happen once a week. Yeah, that's the difference happens once a week. So that's 50 times a year for the last 15 years. That's 2000 times it's happened to me, that's where it gets a bit different, I think

Phil Friend  30:48  
So we need somewhere to go. I think this was Fiona's point, we need somewhere to go where we get support for how that makes us feel, and so on and so forth. Because you can't challenge every single person that you meet, that does this stuff, you just can't. So it's somehow how you maintain your dignity, your strength, your resolve. And I think we do that by being with other disabled people who get it.

Simon Minty  31:14  
Maybe they could listen to podcasts, like The Way We Roll.

Phil Friend  31:18  
Well, this would be the elixr  that they have been looking for for so long.

Simon Minty  31:24  
If only we had a jingle that could tell them what they're listening to right now.

Announcer  31:27  
This is The Way We Roll presented by Simon Minty and Phil Friend, you can email us at Or just search for Minty and Friend on social media. We're on Facebook, Twitter, and LinkedIn.

Phil Friend  31:42  
Right now, one of my favorite slots in the show, we welcome back our good chum, Geoff Adams Spink and he's going to make us all better people by telling us what's good about culture and stuff, books, films, all sorts. Geoff, what's on your what's on the agenda today? 

Geoff Adams-Spink  31:58  
Well I am always looking for that perfect nine or nine and a half out of 10 in terms of, you know, some kind of thing to binge watch on TV. And it might not be a 10. But it's certainly over a nine, I've just been watching something called the White Lotus. If you want to watch it, I think it's on Sky Atlantic. And you can get that from Now TV, if you don't have a Sky subscription in the UK. It's about a luxury resort on one of the Hawaiian Islands. And it's a sort of upstairs, downstairs, you know, flip between the Uber privileged and the people whose unfortunate task is to bow and scrape to them and make them feel like the one percenters that they are. And you just you start them arriving on the beach from a boat and you get more drawn into their lives, I suppose really, what made me attracted to it is that in the end, all of that money, all of that privilege just means that you're probably more messed up in the head. And all of these people are distinctly unhappy, not very happy at all. And there they are in this sort of Paradise resort, but they've reduced it to hell, by their own sort of interactions. So that you know, doesn't matter where you are you whatever problems you've got, you're taking them with you, aren't you? Yeah, even if it's to a tropical island. And what's happening below stairs as it were, what is happening between the staff is equally interesting and intriguing. And how they deal with the privilege of the people they're looking after is very, very fascinating. 

Phil Friend  33:44  
Do the poorer people in quotes poorer people who are serving? Are they exponentially more happy than the rich ones above?

Geoff Adams-Spink  33:55  
I wouldn't say they were any less happy. That's the fact

Simon Minty  33:59  
that's quite nice because you do there's a cliche as in you know, the the poor people are happy, but the rich people aren't guvnor type thing. But yeah, I like that. Everyone's a bit miserable. Everyone,

Geoff Adams-Spink  34:10  
everyone's a bit vile. You know, everyone's a bit vile to everybody else.

Simon Minty  34:14  
How you introduce it. You were smiling throughout. So is this a comedy? Or is this just something you're getting deep pleasure from what they aren't getting?

Geoff Adams-Spink  34:23  
Yeah, I think Simon I'm getting a lot of pleasure from it. Because it's, it's thought provoking. It pokes fun at wokeness for example. It pokes fun at lots of things. And it's one of those things that is so well constructed. It's beautifully shot. There's a an amazing soundtrack of Hawaiian choral music that keeps coming on and coming off and, and in fact, I found that playlist on Apple Music I'm sure it's available on other music services. So I'll include that link. In the notes to you because it's a beautiful playlist of Hawaiian songs that I'd never heard of in my life. So I love the writing. I love the acting. I love the way it's shot and I love the sound as well. It's, I suppose, in these kind of weird days of staycation. You know when we're all a bit nervous about traveling, even if we do dare to adventure abroad, it's a bit of escapism as well.

Phil Friend  35:27  
So nine and a half that's a good score, isn't it? It's a good score

Geoff Adams-Spink  35:32  
for me. For me it's up there with the with with the best of them Succession Madmen, the Soprano is Breaking Bad, Better Call Saul 

Phil Friend  35:40  
All right, well, that's high praise because they're brilliant series on the What about your second thing Geoff George the Poet I think?

Geoff Adams-Spink  35:48  
Oh, George, the poet George George, the poet if you don't know who Georgia poet is. His name is George Umpanga. He's Ugandan and I have a bit of a connection with Uganda because I've made programmes there for the BBC. And we used to go there for a weekend when I was based in Rwanda as a project director. So I know the country reasonably well. So my ears always prick up when I hear something about Uganda, George came to this country as a child. So he speaks what they now call MLE Multicultural London English, which a lot of young people do. So he doesn't sound Ugandan. He sounds like he's from from London. But he's an incredible guy.

I was gonna ask if you could give us a sample of that without being offended.

I don't think I can do the accent very well, bro. No, what I mean,

Simon Minty  36:42  
Well done Geoff.

Geoff Adams-Spink  36:45  
George is a poet, hence the title George, the poet. He's a very bright guy. He went to Cambridge. He now has this podcast called Have you heard George's podcast. And it's this incredible soundscape. A lovely mix of music, sound effects, clips from the news. And him reading a script, which is part prose, but mainly poetry. And the poetry is really subtle. And he delivered it very deliberately and very slowly and very mellifluously. If you like, he's got a beautiful bass voice. And he uses it to great effect. I would, you know, if this was going on one of the BBC outlets, where would it be? And I would say Radio Three, because it's, it's it's radio or podcasts made as art. It's absolutely beautifully done. He collaborates with a guy called Ben Brick and Ben Brick is a is a genius, sound engineer. So all of this stuff, beautifully woven together by George and Ben Brick.

Simon Minty  37:49  
It's been around for a few years. I know. And I also remember, it pipped us to the post of like best podcast of the year, a couple years ago I dont know if  that was 

Phil Friend  37:59  
Only by a point 

Simon Minty  38:00  
Oh it was very, very close. If that was I know the BBC do love it they've promoted it. It's it's doing it's been around and really well respected and well liked for a while isn't it?

Geoff Adams-Spink  38:12  
It got four gold in the recent podcast awards, I think I guess you got three

Phil Friend  38:18  
Three and a half.

Geoff Adams-Spink  38:19  
I think it's three and a half.

Simon Minty  38:20  
We said we didn't want four we thought George deserved to win outright this year. 

Phil Friend  38:25  
He's come so close so many times before. It sounds I mean, I've said to Simon that it's an area I don't know much about poetry. And I'm never been persuaded to dive in and have a look. But this guy sounds like it might be particularly with a London accent might be somebody I should listen to,

Geoff Adams-Spink  38:47  
I would say so. I didn't know anything about grime or drill music except that I didn't really like it very much. And yet George will dive into a track and explain it to you and explain it to somebody who isn't part of that world isn't part of that club. He kind of makes it accessible. I think

Simon Minty  39:05  
that was going to be my question the way me Radio Three grime and thinking oh my goodness, but he's actually sounds very accessible and intelligent, but very accessible as well.

Geoff Adams-Spink  39:13  
That's exactly what it is.

Phil Friend  39:15  
We've got the White Lotus, and we've got George the Poet There our

Geoff Adams-Spink  39:19  
So I'll send you a link to his film, which is called black, yellow and red, which is a rather nice 15 minute short film about Ugandan politics.

Phil Friend  39:27  
Okay, sounds like a bonus. All right, Geoff. Well, thank you. That's excellent. That's plenty to get on with between now and when we speak to you again. So thank you very much indeed. As always, 

Simon Minty  39:38  
I think you've definitely delivered on the cultural element this month so thank you, George. Jeff. Thanks, bro.

Geoff Adams-Spink  39:47  
Okay, guys, take it easy.

Phil Friend  39:49  
Cheers. Thanks.

Announcer  39:50  
This is The Way We Roll with Simon Minty and Phil Friend.

Simon Minty  39:54  
Listeners Corner has returned. We have talked about Professor Fiona Kumari Campbell quite a few times in this show, there are other professors you are allowed to refer to. If you'd like to see the video version, we've got a YouTube video of the full interview. And so we will put the link in the show go and have a look at us and what we do and how we chat. Liam O'Carroll is a lovely listener fan been around for a long time. But he was referring to an earlier show where we talked about other people getting involved when something happens to us in the street and is it supporting us or is it defending us and yada yada? His line? Well, support according to Simon, your definition would be better as in, they're there to help you but they don't actually go barging in and take over. Liam goes on. However, with similar incidents of my experience, Liam is a blind person. Support has been so lacking that once I got defense, someone stepped in, it was refreshingly welcome because I was getting nothing at all. So far worse than defense, someone coming and taking over is nothing at all. And worse than nothing.

Phil Friend  41:03  
I get what Liam is saying. 

Simon Minty  41:06  
One thing to add, he says, I totally get the defense unbidden can be is unbiden. Unbidden??

Phil Friend  41:12  
Unbidden think

Simon Minty  41:13  
I totally get that defense and Biden. (Laughter) Biden in America,

Phil Friend  41:22  
oh, yes, you're thinking,

Simon Minty  41:23  
I'm gonna say is really quick, you know, but equally, I totally get the defense unbidden, can be undermining and disempowering. Or even if it isn't, the fact that it's been done. And whether you like it or not, makes it problematic, that's back to people taking over. So I conclude support represents a better form of intervention. But there are cases when defense would be extremely welcome. That's Liam's take on our discussion. Thank you, Liam.

Phil Friend  41:47  
Yeah, good stuff. Thank you, Liam.

Simon Minty  41:50  
Little Thank you, Diane Sider. Lovely that she's found the show we used to work with her, she just discovered it. So thank you for listening.

Phil Friend  41:56  
Judy Erwin, who's a listener, I had a lovely lunch with her the other day, and she talked about the show. And she particularly talked about Judy Heumann. And the show we did with her. And that then led Judy Erwin to go and look at Crip Camp. And watch that. She said it moved her greatly had a big impact on her. It then led her to go and look at some work done by a woman called Riva. Lehrer  who's written a book called Golam Girl, which is all about the body perfect. And that kind of concept. I won't do it justice in two seconds on this show. But we'll put it in the show notes so people can go and have a look at this. But Judy said she really enjoys the shows. And she found that particular show very helpful to her personally, because she went away and thought through some of the issues that it spoke to her about.

Simon Minty  42:56  
We love Judy and Judy knows her stuff around disability. So that's quite a big thing. I mean, is it too much for me to say where we're changing lives? Phil, do you think

Phil Friend  43:07  
Yeh it probably is a bit too much to say that? Yeah.

Simon Minty  43:09  
Okay, I'll stop. And if you miss our shows, we have an email we send out once a month, for every new show, we're promoting it now, because people didn't realize this, if we mentioned that we've had about eight people say, put us on your list. So if you want to get an email every month telling us it's literally when we publish the show. So it'll say this is the new show here's all the links have a listen when you're ready. So drop us a line or go to our MailChimp page. It's all over our socials and you can put your email in, make sure you go to your junk folder afterwards, because we have to send you a confirmation. And you have to confirm that.

Phil Friend  43:44  
And the email address is And as Simon mentioned, Twitter and Facebook and LinkedIn are all we're all over it like a rash

Simon Minty  43:57  
Beacon Beacon 

Phil Friend  43:58  
Forgot beacon again. Sorry, it's a beacon that I keep forgetting is a beacon. Well, okay, so there we are. That's another show wrapped up Mr. Minty.

Simon Minty  44:09  
Thank you very much if you've been listening so happy to have you along and well done for getting to the end if you have

Phil Friend  44:14  
Yeh Bye bye. See you soon.

Simon Minty  44:16  
Lovely Take care everybody.

Announcer  44:21  
This is The Way We Roll presented by Simon Minty and Phil Friend. You can email us at Mintyand or just search for Minty and Friend on social media. We're on Facebook, Twitter and LinkedIn

Transcribed by

We the 15
Micro Agressions
Cultural Corner with Geoff Adams-spink
Listeners Corner