The Way We Roll

‘Failing upwards’ and ‘Able-anxiety’ with FlawBored Theatre Company

• Phil Friend

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Can you fail upwards? Aarian Mehrabani from FlawBored Theatre says that is what they have done. With his theatre company co-founders Samuel Brewer and Chloe Palmer, they have created a play that pushes the boundaries of disability arts and arts more broadly. 

How has the audience reacted? Do those with a disability react differently to those who aren’t disabled (the answer is sometimes yes)? After creating a show with disability themes, is there a subtle pressure for the next piece of work to move away from the topic? Is that natural, an enhancement or devaluing the subject? And might the term ‘able-anxiety’ be a throw-away joke turning into an accepted word and concept? Sam and Aarian join us to discuss this and more. 

FlawBored is performing ‘It’s a Mother F**king Pleasure’ in Edinburgh this August (link below). Our show has a few spoilers but also might add to your enjoyment. Listeners discretion! 

Links

FlawBored Theatre Company

Tickets to Edinburgh Fringe performances of It’s a Mother F**king Pleasure. 



Announcer:

This is the Way We Roll. Presented by Simon Minty and Phil Friend. You can email us at mintyandfriend@gmail.com or just search for Minty and Friend on social media. We're on Facebook, Twitter, and LinkedIn,

Simon:

Hello and welcome to the Way We Roll With Me, Simon Minty.

Phil:

and me Phil Friend.

Simon:

We are very lucky. This month we have two creative and very funny guests. They are Samuel Brewer and Aarian Mehrabani we don't have Chloe Palmer. She's the third of the three, but together they are known as Flawbored and they are a theatre company.

Phil:

But they're not. Any old theatre company Flawbored are an award-winning disability led theatre company, and Simon recently saw their show called, and here's a swear word, warning, the show is called, it's a Motherfucking Pleasure.

Simon:

Now, in our last podcast, Phil and I explored one of the themes in the show, so we're gonna go quite deep, straight away, and then come back out. But we realized it would be much better if we got the writers, the performers, to come and talk about this show themselves and to ask them what they think of disability, the arts and inclusion currently

Phil:

So let's say hello Sam. Perhaps you could introduce yourself first.

Sam:

Hi, I'm Sam. I'm one of the co-artistic directors of Flawbored. And I think the clarity of this, I am severely sight impaired or registered blind, so I'm one of the, the disabled led aspects of the disability led part of the company.

Phil:

And Arian, perhaps you can tell us a bit about yourself.

Aarian:

Yeah, I'm Aarian. I'm pretty much just duplicate what Sam said. The second artist of three artistic directors of Flawbored and I'm also registered to severely site impaired, and I am the second. And I complete the disability led part of Flawbored

Simon:

And, and Chloe, who's not here she is the, the not disabled one. But you three are all equal. You are all together. You all run it. Is that right?

Sam:

Yeah.

Aarian:

that's right. Yeah. We all, we have a horizontal structure. Is that

Sam:

Yeah. Is that the phrase? Yeah. Yeah. Not top down

Aarian:

we're all equal.

Simon:

yeah. No hierarchy.

Aarian:

for everyone.

Sam:

Lots of arguments. Lots of arguments, but we get it done

Aarian:

But it's disability led, so we lead her.

Simon:

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, of course. Now Phil and some of the others who are probably listening haven't seen the play. So at the risk of being very unartistic synopsis, how would you sum it up?

Aarian:

so.

Sam:

or you? You do it Great.

Aarian:

Yeah, so basically the play is a satire that examines the idea of, basically it comes from the fact that everything sort of marginalized communities often have parts of their identity absorbed into mainstream culture. So you see that with food, with music, with fashion. It's like fashion that starts out on the drag scene will often make its way into mainstream culture. But disability has never been made marketable or mass market. Yet. So this show sort of asks that question of, of what that would look like and, and how, how you would sell the concept of, of disability to the masses. So it's set within a a big PR talent management agency called Rise, spelled with a z. And they're one of their Big influencers has quote unquote done ableism. And so in order to cauterize PR wound, they task a blind diversity hire talent manager, which is played by Sam. That's Tim with building the career of a up and coming blind

Sam:

Well, it's not really, I wouldn't say influence, he's more of like a media personality, I'd

Aarian:

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm, I'm, I'm going for the old, I'm basically just doing the, the, the version of the, the synopsis that. We wrote about a year ago. But yeah a media personality called Ross. And essentially together they work together along with Helen Richardson from hr, which is

Simon:

Mm-hmm.

Aarian:

Chloe Palmer to make the concept of disability and being blind in particular mass market. And so we sort of follow them as, as it snowballs, as we start with small things to sort of make the concept of being blind seem appealing and mass market. And then it sort of snowballs and, and the satire comes in it and it reaches a sort of a dark apex where it sort of reaches its, I guess, inevitable conclusion.

Sam:

But alongside that, we also have this meta theatrical story of Sam, Chloe, and Aarian as very woke, small liberal theatre makers trying to make this, this very accessible show, accessible to all audiences and us stumbling over ourselves as we tie ourselves into knots trying to do that, and then stuffing up and making the mistakes and trying to rectify those mistakes throughout the whole show. So it dips in and out of the two narratives.

Phil:

How long is the, as a matter of interest, how long

Sam:

A Sweet Hour, a short show is a good show in my opinion.

Aarian:

Yeah, baby.

Simon:

I had just realized your point, Sam, about. Both what happens in the play and then what you guys are doing to make it accessible. The bit that I love, you took everything to the nth degree and where it can get absurd if you go all the way full on and, and there's no pausing and no questioning, which was joyous. Whether it is the, the accessibility or whether it is the content. I just hadn't quite realized that that's exactly what you do on both levels.

Sam:

Well, it's, it's good. The subtext finally played out when you think about it. Well, the show's a lot smarter than you think.

Simon:

It's all slotted in a month later. Yeah.

Sam:

Sorry.

Phil:

No, I was just gonna, that's, that's really helpful because I think we're going to have a, a bit more in depth conversation around this whole issue. So perhaps just as a spoiler alert, before we get into talking about you guys in more detail, When, when Simon and I were talking about the show, after he'd seen it and came back and talked about it on our last podcast, he was telling me about the significant moment in the play about where someone is deliberately disabling themselves. And I, you know, as part of the conversation with Simon, sort of suggested that this, this wasn't a great thing to do. So I suppose it's, how did you come up with this idea and how difficult was it to explore that within the sort of confines of the theatre, the play, and everything else? Cause it's a pretty radical idea, isn't it?

Sam:

it, it is, but I, I don't necessarily think it is as uncommon. Like obviously there was things with, say for example, It might've been the NAACP in the States with Rachel Doel, who was like one of their a woman who was ostensibly pretending to be African-American, making their way up in like African American. And, and there is cases now of things like trans ableism, which is a thing that sort of this, and it's very, very small accounts of it. But within our show, the, we actually use real life evidence of people actually doing this ostensibly. And I think, and I think for us, that was always a point where, again, as Aarian was saying earlier, that idea of like, in terms of mass marketing disability, like I wouldn't be able to go up to a non-disabled person say, Hey, here's braille, isn't this really cool? Don't you want to like buy into this? It doesn't have, there's nothing where, as opposed to, like, as Aarion was saying, things like drag culture, you know, we see that in fashion or we see like music like being adopted and stuff like that. And I think. For us, it was always trying to find that difference. Whenever we talk about these identities and intersectionality, you know, race, gender, sexuality, often when people were doing the Holy Trinity, they'd forget about class and disability whenever they'd speak about these topics. And it's sort of that kind of complexity of, you know, we've got phrases like black power, we have gay pride, and it's sort of like with disability that's sort of. That, that, that, that there wasn't like that word. I know there's disabled pride now, but I think disabled pride is a far more, not, I'm not gonna say far more. I don't wanna put myself in it, but I think it's a, it feels a lot more complex. Like my pride and my disability can still be something I find incredibly irritating at times. Cause I live in a disabling world. However, I can still be proud of who I am as a person. But that, that same, I think from the, the get go, we always wanted to put that in. From the very, very early start, that was always something when Aarian and I had our first conversation about the show and with Chloe, we were like, we wanna put this in. This is really important.

Aarian:

it also like it, it leads off like, like Sam said, like it was always that it was gonna be in, and then it became more complex because when you sort of think about trends or if something sort of hits the zeitgeist, where does it, where does it get to? You sort of see that they, they end in, in uncomfortable situations. Like if you take I dunno whether you remember the Kylie General Lip Challenge a few years back. I think it was

Sam:

No, no, no one's got that, that that's a generational reference that even I don't get Aarian

Simon:

which, challenge was it?

Aarian:

The Kylie Jenner Lip Challenge, so Kylie Jenner, who's like one of the Kardashian girls so she, she has a big old lips lovely, lovely big old lips. And people would, there was a trend where people would suck on shot glasses in order to make their l ips really big, but they'd end up like really messing up their face. And if you like Google it, you'll see like, like videos of people or pictures were just bruising around their lips. Similarly you had, like, when I was talking to another friend, they reminded me of cuts for Biba back in I think 2013, where a certain group of, a certain subsection of Justin Bieber's fan fans when he was going off the rails a bit

Sam:

Self-harm warning there

Aarian:

Oh, sorry. Self-harm warning. Would, so it's like, it's what, what's the end goal of it? And then as we started exploring it more, you then go, okay. Actually that then allows us to, cuz that, that scene is then is essentially a, we hope is a, a well crafted and I guess cloaked like debate between these two characters. About. Whether like what, like Sam said, what dis disabled pride is and the like. Yeah. I'm, I'm, I'm happy in my own skin, but that doesn't necessarily mean that I, I want other people to.

Sam:

And I just wanted to jump in very, very quickly. I, I cuz I listened to the last episode. I just wanted to point out that, with that scene where they're having this argument it's important to reconcile that Tim and Ross, the characters played by Aarian and myself are both blind having this argument. So that's where that complexity comes in. So an audience watching that feels super uncomfortable cause it's a conversation that they shouldn't be a part of. They don't feel comfortable being a a part of

Phil:

yes.

Simon:

I again, thank you for adding a layer. I mean, I, I think I, I just, I just love the concept of, I'm thinking of a couple of things that relate to it. One, I know there was a, a sort of big brother style show a few years ago on Channel four that only had disabled participants, and about three days in one of the contestants said, oh, I need to explain. I actually chopped my leg off deliberately. I, I had surgery cause I wanted to become disabled. And the rest of the house just freaked out and they didn't trust them. They thought they were interloper and the, you know, the other person without her leg was like, why the hell did you do that? And they're like, oh, hang on. So it was and also I have these arguments internally and externally I have dwarfism. The idea that we make more children with dwarfism and they pop out is fabulous to me. I think that's really brilliant, but I, I know there's people who wouldn't or have the terminations or that sort of like, even other short people, so it does become really, really complex.

Phil:

I suppose the other thing picking up on the contestant there is. Evidence. In some of the work I did years ago, not me personally, but was involved in, of people as a survival mechanism amputating their legs, so they lay on railway tracks. So trains was run. This was to make them better beggars. It wasn't about it belonging to a movement, it was about survival. What was the film about? Calcutta where they put the girl's eyes out, so she was a better beggar. The children were taken off to this place. They were deliberately blinded. And then they attracted more sympathy. And this was in that film and it caused extraordinary shock but the complexity of what you're talking about here is on the one level, identifying in certain ways and that being abhorrent, i e for non-disabled people to think of themselves as disabled in whatever form is abhorrent. But when it comes down to whether you survive or not, you're prepared to do it. So that tells us what people think about disability in the round. I e stay away from it at all costs. It's the final resting place kind of thing. What, what's your sense of that?

Sam:

I've, I've heard of that phenomena before. But in terms of, just to answer that question, Phil, in terms of it's, it's fast. I'm sure we've all had those like very ableist sort of phrases that are said to us being like, oh. Cause if somebody says to me, oh, if I was blind, I would've, you know, been of a warning here of what they'd say, but like, it's quite safe space, I would've killed myself. And you're kind of like wow. Thank you. Like, but they're like, you're doing great. It's like, fantastic or How is that? And if hearing that over and over again, I sort of feel like it affects you or it affected me. It affects me personally and my sense of self worth in a, in a, in a larger society. You know? So again, reflecting on that, like you really have to push against a disabling world and those kind of phrases to make yourself feel pride, make yourself feel proud of who you are as well. So it's a big, it's activism to ostensibly exist. In this world and deal with those conversations.

Phil:

Yeah, microaggressions. Simon and I talked once about, we had that on the show about those little things that are said to you every single day that gradually wear you down.

Simon:

I love the fact that you went there and I love the fact how you explored it and it was, it was beautifully crafted and I mean, I did occasionally find, I was the only one who was sort of laughing at certain bits cuz I knew where you're playing and everyone's like, what are you laughing about bit? And I'm like, oh. Cause it's quite clever. And there's, they're playing

Aarian:

a, yeah, that's a fascinating phenomenon of, of watching audiences, especially when you sort of, when we, when we got to Soho for, for our three week run that we're exposed to audience. Audiences that some audiences that are disabled and then some audiences that are non-disabled and the, like, non-disabled audiences. There are bits where they're like, oh God, like that's not funny. And then the disabled audiences are howling and cackling there there's sort of a cross section of non-disabled people who are around disability. my friends who are non-disabled, who, I mean, there's, there's a bit in the show, not to spoil it, but there's, there's a bit around confusing two women of colour in the show. It's a comedy one of, one of my friends who herself is a, a woman of colour was like, cackling. I'm so glad you addressed that, because we have had that conversation. But it's so hard to tell other people that like it's, yeah.

Simon:

Yeah, I do remember that being there. Now I have a question for you. In the play, there's a phrase that pops up called Abel's, an able anxiety and the non-disabled character, which Chloe played. She exhibited this a lot. And we all know that person. It's someone who wants to get it right or this is my interpretation, wants to get it right, wants to be involved in disability stuff, but tried a bit too hard, always just terrified of doing the wrong thing. Now was this something you created? Cause I mentioned it a couple of weeks later. I was doing some event, and I mentioned this as a phrase. And credited you, of course. And then people, people started moving away, quoting it as though this was now a proper phrase. And I'm like, no, it was a, it was a comedy construct. People like, oh yeah, I've got able anxiety now. And I'm like, whoa, whoa, whoa.

Sam:

funnily enough with that, with that phrase, where it's come, it's, it's now been used, like friends of mine who are academics or who've been writing stuff, it's now been quoted in people's essays and papers and I'm just sort of like, I guess where I, but credit where credit is due it's Aarian so we worked with that director, Josh Roach, we were talking about this phenomena and Josh sort of like, you know, like, like white anxiety, but like, they're like, yeah, able anxiety, that's what it is.

Aarian:

But Josh just started use. I remember being in a meeting room and Josh just started saying the phrase a anxiety, and I think when he left, I feel like I remember really distinctly Josh. Leaving the meeting at one of our first meetings after we brought him on, but all of us were like, is that a phrases that he was using if was phrase we, well, I guess it is

Simon:

I guess cuz it's so kind of perfect and we, we've never really had a sort of word or phrase for that. It just fits. So, although it is comedic, it actually is, I dunno. Yeah, I, I liked it.

Phil:

And I, you know, I, I get it. I think I, I think this could stick. I think you guys should get a patent straight out on that. You're making a lot of money, you know, because things like we, Simon and I back in the day, refused to talk about special needs and talked about additional needs, and somehow that stuck. Why wouldn't this stick? Because it actually does describe quite neatly what, what we think is going on. It's quite a clever, anyway, I, I loved it too, and I wasn't even in the show, so. Simon told me about that. I thought it's really, really neat. I mean, I suppose thinking about the theme, I mean, the disability themes clear, it's all in the show. But you need to ensure that it's accessible to your audiences. So I wonder what kind of, what you had to do, what were the difficulties around that, given them multiplicity of people that are likely to turn up and, and, and watch what you're doing.

Sam:

Funnily enough with the cause, the first scene is us coming out as Sam, Chloe, and Arian trying to set up this show. As the most accessible show you can make. We've thought about all the current cultural phenomena of what is in, in terms of good politics in the theater world. For us, we always nicknamed that scene access loopholes. So for example, if there's a joke in the captions, we're like, oh, oh, oh, oh dear, we need to audio describe that for our blind audience members and we need to, and then it's sort of like, we call that a loophole cause it just be going in a loop over and over again and we're like, oh, well we've out this, this joke for audio description. How do we do that as a gag for hard of hearing audiences? What? And that sort of through that was how we kind of found the comedy and for us integrating audio description. It's sort of second nature for Aarian and I because it's sort of, and it's also, it's also not, and this might sound difficult, it's also not that hard to do it. People complain about it doing stuff. It's sort of like instead of saying, pass me that, you can just say, can you pass me that magazine? So great. Okay. I know it's a magazine now. Thank you for telling me. Easy done.

Phil:

When you read plays at school, it sort of says, you know, so and so enters from the left, sits in the chair, and, you know, it's, it's kind of a a clever and more sophisticated extension of that, isn't it?

Announcer:

This is The Way We Roll with Simon Minty, and Phil Friend.

Simon:

I, my friend who came with me, Steve He helped me set up Abnormally Funny People many years ago. He's my non-disabled friend, but has been around disability for years, the bit he loved the most, which I think sort of does show something was when the, is it the audio describer or the person doing the subtitling starts reading them out. Then you get, that's it, the captioner and then the member of the public gets involved. And captioner just keeps messing about with what they say. Steve adored this. He just thought this was the funniests thing ever and I liked it, but, but being involved in, yeah, I'm going, yeah, actually I like the way they're playing with that, but I still like the other stuff probably a bit more, but I don't, I dunno where I'm going with that. I dunno whether there's a disability thing going on. I'm playing it too much.

Sam:

It's, it's funny with that, with, for us, that that scene can either be really funny or not funny at all depending on the audience member who's reading it. So, because sometimes, Because sometimes you'll get somebody who's like, who's watching it? Who's, I'm an actor and I'm gonna do it confidently. And you're like, well, now it's not funny. It's, it's only funny when someone's slightly apprehensive about reading it. They don't realize how long it's going to be, or, or sometimes you'll get somebody who's so apprehensive and they're trying to do the right thing and they just feel so uncomfortable. You we're sitting backstage and we're just like, oh, we feel awful for this person right now. Like, I'm so sorry.

Simon:

You, you're right. And you have reminded me, I thought if I, the first two, three lines I'd have loved to have done, but it does go on for a long

Sam:

Oh yeah, we've, we've cut a bit of a down for the next iteration of the show. Like this is pretty long. Cut a couple of lines out of this one

Aarian:

Yeah, because at Soho we weren't gonna get fines if we went over, we're going to the fringe and like we get fines so we can't afford to go over budget

Phil:

so you are, you are going to the Fringe, are you with, with the show?

Sam:

Yes, so we, we won a, we won an award called The Untapped Award, which is done by New Diorama Theatre, who I believe they started. They're a big, big new Diorama theatre and Underbelly. Other venues new Diorama Theatre have produced other companies like Navarro Ric, who currently have a show or just finished a show on the West End, four Black Boys. Also Operation Mince Meat, which is a show on the West end, I think sort of started through M D T as well.

Phil:

I, I love all these names, Mincemeat and it's a different world, isn't it?

Simon:

Well, Operation MinceMeet is a massive hit. I mean, it's it's a comedy, isn't it? About, well, I'm digressing again. You'll know it Phil. Phil, it was about World War ii, I think. And

Phil:

Thank you very much.

Simon:

I didn't mean you were around. I meant you'll, you'll have heard the story.

Phil:

The reason I'm delighted that it's going to the Fringe for the, other than the very obvious reasons, that it's brilliant to do that. I remember when Simon took abnormally funny people up there and I went and saw it. It was fabulous. But it's also the timing of this show. Cause we think it will come out at about the same time. So we can do a bit of promo around that.

Sam:

Quid pro quo.

Phil:

Yeah. Absolutely. Absolutely. Absolutely. Can I, can I perhaps move this on a bit? Cuz I think obviously the conversations we've had so far is about the show and how the show develops and so on, and it does sound absolute gas and I, I'm, I'm really getting more annoyed now that I haven't seen it. But I wondered if I could just take you back really to how the three of you, Chloe, obviously who isn't with us today, how the three of you came to work together. How that, how that all came about. Because it's really crazy, isn't it? People suddenly arriving at this and doing this stuff.

Aarian:

So we all met at drama school together. We all trained at the Royal Central School Speech and Drama. On, on three year acting course with in the course we did was had, had a bit of devising in it. We don't believe it to be true now because some people have have corrected us, but we were told at the time, multiple times, that we were the first ever visually impaired people to have been trained a conservatoire.

Simon:

Wow.

Aarian:

I don't think that's true. Like we've, we've since met people, but we were told so many times we were like, yeah, we're the first. Every now and then you meet someone, he's like, there was a girl like Royal Welsh a few years ago. So yeah, we were basically, I remember on the, on the very first day because Sam is. A little bit older than me. Not, not that still, still young. Still still a young whipper snapper, but I, I started when I was 18 and Sam, I think, were you? 24? 25.

Sam:

25. I was 25 or 26. I, yeah,

Aarian:

yeah. So I was, I was a little 18 year old boy and we I remember being outside central and I had a guide dog at the time, and someone comes up to me and goes, You're the blind guy and I was like, yep. He was like, cool. I guess we're I guess we're stuck together and we are, the thing is we're such different people like, and that like a, a big part of the show also came from the fact that we are like, as people life experiences in gen, like just so, such different people. The only thing that links us is our disability, but we were always smushed together. And we, we realized we were like, I guess. I guess we sort of like making work together, but also we can probably get funding to make work together and like, we're not getting any other work ourselves, so let's do it. And we, we both really enjoyed, Chloe was also she also trained with us and we both absolutely love working with Chloe and the the writing she does. And, and she's just an amazing, amazing person. So we got her in on it and started developing this show and it and start, we, we didn't intend to make a company, this is all an accident. We intended to, develop just pitch, to develop a show for a bit because we had nothing better to do cos it was January, 2021 and there was a lockdown and I was like, oh, I'm not getting no work. So, yeah it's happened and now

Phil:

Mega. Your Mega Stars.

Sam:

in Indie darlings is the phrase Indie Darlings

Phil:

The education I'm receiving in this podcast is phenomenally helpful,

Simon:

You have a reminded me the sort of the throwing of you together or the two of you together, although you voluntarily did it, which is lovely. And I know two of the comedians we used to work with Steve Day and Chris McCausland and one is deaf and one is blind, and they're sort, oh, we just always booked together to give the, the comparison and you're like, oh, it's just a nightmare. I'll give a little shout out to Chloe cuz. Chloe reminds me of Steve in that, that the not disabled person has to have a huge amount of skill and knowledge and confidence and all the things that you need to be able to mess around with this, but also not screw it up type thing. And I'm sensing that she is absolutely critical to the three of you working together.

Sam:

Absolutely.

Aarian:

A hundred percent. And there's also like to add that a sensitivity. To where her remits of lived experience sort of end, and where it's appropriate to go. This isn't appropriate for me to engage in this conversation. I'll let you guys engage in, in, in what this conversation needs and educate me, but I'll also engage in, in the creative sense. And yeah, she's, she's

Sam:

I just wanted to also, just on that note with the creation, it was co-created also with our director and drama. Josh Roach, who was also a non-disabled white man. Straight white man. So he, he's the top of the hedgemony. Top, top of the pyramid. It's, it is a learning process with him. But we, we did a workshop and we, we ran a workshop with the creators. We had, but Josh was definitely 25%. One of the people who made the show. And Josh also like, has been fantastic for us and has like, you know, learned a lot in the same way that Chloe learned. We've known Chloe since 2017, and Josh we've known since last year. But the strides Josh has made, the kind of work that they've done with us has been phenominal as well.

Phil:

I mean the title we've been saying Flawbored, but we've not spelt that cuz it's spelt deliberately. As F L A W B O R E D I'm really quite interested in how that came about. I mean,

Aarian:

So basically we, so our first bit of funding we were, we were applying to, to get a bit of money and a bit of space to to develop the show or to develop this idea. It was a programme called the Launchpad Programme with Wildcard Theatre and the Watermill Theatre. And we wanted to develop a show, but the, it was for emerging theatre companies. So we were filling out the form on Zoom and we were like, oh God, we've got a pretend to be, we gotta say we're a theatre company. And then it said like, we'll say we're a theatre company, if we get it, we'll just, yeah. Say we're a theatre, whatever. And then it came to like, Theatre company name and we're like, oh God. Just like, let's put it in a placeholder. Chloe looks down at the floor and goes, floorboard placeholder. Sam goes, let's spell it. F L A W B O R e D. That'll be funny. It was a placeholder and then people that started like looking into it being like, yeah, cuz you're bored or your flaws in it. And it's like, oh yeah, it really wasn't that. It was an accident. This is all, and we failed upwards.

Phil:

It's like anxiety, isn't it? It's a kind of, yeah, just chuck it in there and suddenly it is actually really quite clever, isn't it?

Sam:

I was just saying, I mean, yeah, just unconscious, happy little accidents, I think

Phil:

Yes,

Aarian:

did. That's the point about audio, like screen readers that you you

Sam:

Oh yeah. I was brought to my attention that unless you are reading your screen reader in American with the American accent, a screen reader doesn't pick up on the pun. B o r e d. And I remember this fantastic artistic director, Maria who runs England's leading vision impaired theatre was just like, why are you called floorboard? Thinking it was just like the floorboard on the ground. And I was like, ah, bloody hell.

Simon:

I I ha I have learned if, cause I say let's get a working title in. I'm like, oh God, that's gonna be it. That once you get a working title, it stays there. Nobody can be bothered to change

Aarian:

That's why it's called. It's a motherfucking pleasure. That was an accident too.

Simon:

So I love the Soho theatre and it's fabulous that they gave you the, the residency kind of more broadly. How has it been in terms of the shows, the, the artwork that you do? Are theatres open to this? Are they good in terms of accessibility? You getting warm open receptions or is it still quite hard work?

Sam:

We've been very lucky. We honestly, our, our director, Josh Roach, who works freelance director, and they've, they've got a. They won this big directing award for the JM K award a while ago. But that when, when we started, when we did our first research and development of developing the show, a very different show from when we first started. Josh was like, you are not going. Like after doing that, we were like, oh, we wanna go to the Soho we just had this pipe dream of going to Soho. Josh was like, you're not gonna Soho. That's never gonna happen. And then Josh has just spent all these opportunities that we've got, which we've been very grateful for. Very, very grateful. Josh is just like, this is ridiculous. This is absolutely ridiculous. And he's like, it's a great show. But the fact that so many people, we've been supported by a great company called Thena Deli, who gave us a residency there for a few weeks to Prepare our show as part of their access residency, which was specifically for disabled artists. We were supported with some seed funding, a seed commission by Camden Peoples Theater, Cryptic which is an organization run by a fantastic person called Jamie Hale.

Phil:

I know. Yeah. Jamie Hale. Yeah. Yeah.

Sam:

Ha is fantastic. And they've supported us as well. In terms of it, honestly, as Aarian keeps on saying, this show has snowballed so when we first started, people were. Tentatively interested, but what we really got good at doing was understanding when pitching the show, it was currently hitting at a cultural zeitgeist that theatre world is currently having and the way they're having it, we were ostensibly lampooning the way they were having it. So I think a lot of paces places in the early stage, we were a very early company, were willing to sort of roll the dice with us. And now after we did the the, we did the bolts festival where we were picked up by Soho. The phrase we've used is that we were the prettiest girl at prom because a bunch of theatres wanted us and we felt very, very, like, oh, so many options. Well, so we've been super lucky, but again, the hardest part is as disabled artists is this sort of necessity. Now we've made this show that was specifically about identity and disabled identity, and it's sort of the expectation for us as being able to make work in other aspects of our identity. Does it have to be disability focused? Is it going to be about. Our know, my lived experience supply person. Part of, I think, part of the journey for Flawbored now is also working out what the next show is and whether people are gonna be as interested in programming a show that could be a, a, a fantasy piece or a historical piece about something in World War ii. But if we as Flawbored went to a place to pitch that there might be like, well, hang on a second. You should probably stick with in disability. That's your thing. And that's the kind of issue that we're coming up to

Phil:

That's a really interesting issue, isn't it? Cuz I suppose in my career in a previous life, I, I was a social worker and all that stuff, and my disability was completely incidental. I had nothing to do with that. I then end up in disability rights and politics stuff, and I can't escape the disability kind of tag, so I might be, I've never invited to go and talk about something that isn't, I mean, I'll talk about Newcastle Football Club or something, but, but only from a wheelchair accessible point of view. That's really interesting, Sam, because Yeah, so your next show in a sense, if it completely was about something, a supermarket

Sam:

Yeah.

Phil:

or.

Simon:

Oh, you are. You are gonna be part of the creative team, Phil, with ideas like that.

Phil:

No, but,

Sam:

Ooh. Ooh. Supermarket you say say

Announcer:

This is The Way We Roll Simon Minty and Phil Friend.

Phil:

Sam has posed, I think a really interesting and fundamental question, and

Simon:

i, yeah, I, I, I think, I mean, I contradict myself on this cuz I get frustrated that that is a sort of an underlying, if not always spoken pressure, because it, one does it then devalue what disability art is because you've gotta move on or you've gotta progress or you've gotta go somewhere else. And we used to get this with a comedy, like, oh well done for doing comedy around disability, but can you do other stuff? And women get it? You've done all your women comedy, why don't you do some other more mainstream stuff? Whereas, a bloke does his comedy and people go, well, shouldn't you move on to another area now? And so there is a sort of almost a devaluing by that question. But the flip side is your actors, your creative people, you wanna do everything as well. And you should be able to do that.

Aarian:

the nice thing, sort of the, the nice thing I guess is that we can, we can hide behind the company name. So Flawbored can be like, there are, there are three of us who are, are, who are Flawbored and like Flawbored can be whatever people think Flawbored is. But there are three individuals behind Flawbored. And we can go out and essentially do whatever we want and fail or succeed on our own. Like I can, I can go off and do like, My music stuff, which nobody listens to and nobody cares about, but that doesn't affect Flawbored

Phil:

Unless its a massive hit and then Flawbored wanna claim all the credit for it, presumably. Yeah.

Aarian:

So like everyone ever, we, we can all sort of go forge our own our own paths, which we can. I guess the, the positives is that we can use the fact that like we all co-found Flawbored and we all co-wrote this successful show, but we can be like, But we aren't tied, like my name isn't tied it's a weird dynamic of trying to forge a career like Sam said, using. Being aware of what's hitting the culture of zeitgeist, of, of theatre and theatre funding and creative funding. Because like, to be frank, there are lots of people that we know who are amazing theatre makers, but just haven't had the opportunities that we've had because their show isn't about X, Y, Z, or doesn't hit these points, or they don't fit a certain group of identities. So like we owe it to the identities that we've had, I guess this, this launchpad for our careers, but then it's trying to break away from it in a way that still pays respect to our roots.

Phil:

Yeah. Yeah.

Simon:

And, and, and really good question and. A point, lampooning the zeitgeist is absolutely why you're getting all the offers. Cuz I mean, that's fabulous and I love that, that that's what you're doing. I I, I, I take your point also, I wanna be corny and kind of see, you know, 30, 40 years ago, you wouldn't have had those opportunities. So it's lovely that its come around, but, and you're right. Whatever you do, you're gonna still, it's gonna be an inherent element of it, even if it's completely new topic. I mean, talking to which future projects, I mean, I know obviously it's mother effing pleasure, it's still strong but have you got ideas beyond the supermarket one that Phil just threw at you?

Sam:

Yeah. We've got a meeting next Monday where we're like, where we're messing. Right. Second show who's got some ideas? But I think for us, we're sort of talking like, because I, I don't wanna speak now without Chloe here actually. Yeah, no, we we're, we're trying to work out the future for us. That's like next week we're gonna sit down and work out. But what's been interesting, we've had a few conversations with media outside of theater. Not, I say no more so no less which, you know, in the end of the day means nothing. It could mean a lot. But we've had a lot of really exciting, exciting stuff happening. And I think for us, cuz we're doing Edinburgh now from the 2nd to the 27th we're sort of trying to focus on that cause we've got our own other careers as well. It's trying to keep all the plates spinning. So us it's this Monday is when we might have information about future projects.

Phil:

Yeah. Thinking about the, I mean, that's, that's, that's, it's good to know that you are, you are now beginning to think about what comes next, and obviously as individuals there'll be things, but as a group given, I mean, what wouldn't you do again, I mean, people listening to this particularly young, I hope younger people listen, or those that wanna do something in the, in the sort of entertainment or acting sphere. What things would you suggest they should avoid doing that you wish you hadn't done? If you see what I mean

Aarian:

so, yeah, I, oh, right. I th I, it's not so much things, things to avoid, but there's, there's the mindset, which is a lovely mindset to have of, I am going to succeed based on just my artistic output alone. And if, if, and that is, is a lovely, and sometimes that happens, but realistically what we've realised is that, You sort of, it, it helps if you are able to, the extent that you are comfortable with, use part or use parts of your identity, collaborate with other people that share parts of your identity and create work that links to that which will. Then it'll, it'll have an immediate audience, which will, once you build that, you are then sort of able to start to break out of it and start to do whatever, whatever you want, but, To, to start and cuz I, I definitely started very naively being like, I am, I left drama school and I was like, I will do no things that involve a person of colour I will do no things that involve a blind person. I am just a 21 year old actor and there are loads of them and I'm not a very good actor. I'm fine. I am an absolutely fine actor, but if you need me, if you need a person of colour who's 21, if you need a campy person who's. Well, I'm 24 now, but like if you need someone who's blind, I'm your guy. But if you need a, a mid twenties guy, good god. There are so many of them, and I am really, I am fine in terms of quality. So like it's, it's knowing, it's knowing what you, what you are, what you bring to the table, and being realistic with it.

Phil:

Okay, that's a great, yeah. Isn't it? Being confident and sticking it out there and see what happens and sometimes it's horrible and, but a lot of times it's not courage.

Sam:

it's very hard to also say, what wouldn't we do? Because again, we've been very, very lucky and I think we, we,

Phil:

you believe it's luck though, Sam? Let me push you on that.

Sam:

There's Okay. Elements. I, I do believe that the, the context and like, you know, all the things of this big capitalist world in which we live in and that sort so that can, can make, can push us in a certain way and push, and I'd say there is a dollop of hard work that we've done. And it absolutely is there. And we'd always use the phrase like, whatever we're interviewing new freelancers to work with, we're like, we're lovable idiots. Cuz we're sort of like moving up and yeah, it, it is, our instincts have been good. I think that's, that's been really, really nice to say. But I think for us as well, it's work. A lot of people come out wanting to make work with people that I really get along with this person and it's like, well, no, work with people who challenge you. Like you can get along with them, but don't work with someone whose taste is the same as yours. Who's gonna be like, Oh, that scene's great because this is the stuff we like, Aarian and I have very, very, very different taste in theatre and performance. So does Chloe, between all three of us. And it's sort of like what's good is us being able to sit down when we're making work and being like, we, that because of that factor, we can have a 20 minute debate about whether the word has or had is funnier in a scene. You know? And that sort of stuff is just, it's really, really useful.

Aarian:

Yeah, that's why we. We brought Josh, our, our director when we were, when we were interviewing the directors and we had a bit of money to bring, to bring people on. We were like, oh God. Like the reason we wanted Josh was because, He really challenged us during our interview process. And like we, we, by, by the time we brought Josh on, we had 15 minutes of work, which we thought, which was award-winning material. And it got us where we, it got us the, the, the money to do this r and d, and we were like, yeah, this 15 minutes is gonna stay in the piece no matter what. First day of the r and d we're like, Josh, we're gonna show you these 15 minutes and it's gonna be amazing.

Sam:

Its going to blow your socks off

Aarian:

And he just, we were, he wasn't laughing. The entire time. We, we then went on break and we were like, I think we picked the wrong director guys. I, I, I, I, I, I, I don't think he gets it. He doesn't get it, but he was so the journey that we went on was, was so integral to sort of like developing the work and make, like that show would not have gone to Soho that show was 15 minutes, would've been exhausting to do and watch. It was a mess, but it was, it was, yeah.

Simon:

We have to pull this to a close.

Phil:

Yeah, we do.

Simon:

sad, but it's been a joy speaking to you both. You are going to be with Chloe in Edinburgh, what did you say? Second to the 27th of August.

Sam:

Second to the 27th of August at 2:10 PM at the Friesian space in Bristow Square through Underbelly.

Aarian:

And we've also got a couple of preview dates that are yet to be announced in London at the end of July. This might go out after that as happened, but they'll, yeah.

Simon:

We hope our listeners will both follow you and come to the show. I'll be in Edinburgh at the end of the, the last week, so maybe I'll come back and see it again and say hello and see how marvelous it all is. I should drag you up, Mr. Friends. You love Edinburgh.

Phil:

I do. And I, and I like meeting people like these two who are doing stuff that's different and creative. It reminds me a little bit, I'm old, see I'm an old geezer. But there's a kind of pythonesque. Story here about how people with very different skill sets come together and make magic. And and I'm fairly sure from, if you read back about the Pythons, they didn't get on all the time as creative geniuses in their own rights. So I, I thought this conversation was really interesting. I hope too that people listening who are thinking about maybe moving into this space and how they might be more creative, get, get some kind of. Encouragement from what you guys have been saying because clearly you are making good stuff and I'm sorry I haven't seen it, but I will keep my eye for it cuz I get a chance to go along.

Sam:

Oh, thank you very much, Phil it's been an absolute pleasure for us.

Simon:

Thank you so much. Really appreciate your time and good luck with the show and, and good luck with your future adventures as well. It's been a joy.

Phil:

Yeah,

Aarian:

Thanks

Sam:

Joy. Hopefully speak to you both soon. Have a lovely day.

Phil:

you take it easy guys.

Simon:

That was fun.

Phil:

Ah, such fun. Such fun, such fun. No, it was, I, I really, I found them incredibly engaging. Really interesting guys. So. Very self-effacing actually. You know

Simon:

I like that they are not two peas in the pod except for a sort of commonality, but that's how they work and bounce off each other and with the third person, Chloe, in the mix. Yeah, really nice, really good,

Phil:

no joyable. We, we, listeners, let us know what you think. Please, immediately,

Simon:

talking of which any listeners messages.

Phil:

there is a listener's message, Simon. It is a very, very important listener's message. It's from our old chum, Dave Reece,

Simon:

What does Dave say?

Phil:

Dave says, I've been listening to your latest show, and I thought it was really good. I'll stop it there. No, he goes on. He goes on to say it made you really think, especially the ethics of having the right to make yourself disabled, Really great discussion. So Dave, as always, is ahead of the curve because we are now recording. We've just finished recording. The guys who were responsible for the whole idea of disabling yourself stuff,

Simon:

Just one concern though, if we're, you know, making our listeners really think, I mean, are we doing this right? Have we, have we gone wrong somewhere? Taking a wrong turn?

Phil:

why and what do you think we should be doing?

Simon:

I thought they just slightly comatose and in indifferent to it all.

Phil:

Mainly semi-conscious. It was sort of playing in the background as they showered

Simon:

Yeah. Is that Phil and Simon droning on again?

Phil:

There's that Chappy used to do listen to us in his bath

Simon:

Yeah. Paul,

Phil:

He never said that his head wasn't under the water, did he just said. Anyway,

Simon:

Thank you Dave.

Phil:

Dave. That as always, it's good to hear from anybody, but Dave is a regular contributor, so it's nice to hear from him again.

Simon:

Now I know they can get us on LinkedIn and Facebook and Twitter and Instagram. I mean, anywhere else.

Phil:

We are everywhere. We're also on email.

Simon:

Oh

Phil:

that thing called email. It's at mintyandfriend

Simon:

oh yeah.

Phil:

gmail.com.

Simon:

We hope you have a lovely August month. If you happen to be in Edinburgh, have a lovely time at the Fringe and see the shows. Go see Flawbored."It's a mother effing pleasure". I'll tell you what, also there's a ton of good disability art stuff up there, so if you fancy it, go and check'em out.

Phil:

Are you up there?

Simon:

Going there for a week just to do a bit of work and to have a little wander around. Yes. But not involved in any other shape or form,

Phil:

Okay. Okay.

Simon:

but support the community. Do your stuff.

Phil:

yeah. Good to see you, Simon. Enjoy yourself in Edinburgh when you get there. And take care everybody.

Simon:

Thanks everyone. Take care, too.

Announcer:

This is the Way We Roll. Presented by Simon Minty and Phil Friend. You can email us at mintyandfriend@gmail.com or just search for Minty and Friend on social media. We're on Facebook, Twitter, and LinkedIn,