The Way We Roll
A seriously funny take on life from the disability driven duo... Simon Minty and Phil Friend.
The Way We Roll
Under the Hood with Andrew Miller CEO: Navigating Motability's Road Ahead
Our guest is Andrew Miller, the Chief Executive Officer of Motability Operations (MO). Many of you will know of this unique organisation. Indeed, some of you will be customers.
The Motability Scheme leases cars, powered wheelchairs and scooters to more than 700,000 disabled people in the UK. It is the largest car fleet in the UK. Andrew heads up the scheme's delivery, ensuring customers have a range of affordable options to stay mobile and ensuring the company stays on the right financial road.
It’s not an easy job with many challenges. The switch to electric vehicles is well underway, and it disproportionately impacts disabled people in terms of access, charging accessibility and price. As MO buys and sells 200,000 cars a year, small price fluctuations can significantly impact the financial model. Still, they must also maintain a consistent offering to their customers. Stakeholders aren’t just scheme customers; there’s the oversight from the Motability Foundation, successive governments, and the press, which often take an interest.
In an open conversation, we explore with Andrew the biggest challenges in the recent past and what the future looks like. Although he may be highly experienced in finance and business, he’s new to disability, and we check in with him to see how he is getting on.
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Simon Minty
Hello everybody, this is Simon from The Way We Roll
Phil Friend
And Phil Friend,
Simon Minty
We're just giving you a little top-of-the-show intro. We're recording this just around the day of international day disabled people; we hope you have a good one. Our guest this month is the chief executive of Motability Operations, Andrew Miller; we do hope you enjoy this show.
Phil Friend
Yeah, I mean, the topic affects so many of us and Andrews got some really interesting in a sense updates about what's coming, what the future might look like. So yes, very interesting conversation.
Simon Minty
If you have any questions, you can drop us a line on Facebook, LinkedIn, or Twitter; all the socials were there.
Phil Friend
And mintyandfriend@gmail.com is our email address.
Simon Minty
Here is the show. We hope you enjoy it.
Phil Friend
But before we do have a very happy Christmas
Simon Minty
Well done jingle bells
Phil Friend
go
Simon Minty
Hello, and welcome to The Way We Roll with me Simon Minty
Phil Friend
and me Phil Friend.
Simon Minty
Our guest is Andrew Miller, who is the Chief Executive of Motability Operations. If you've not come across this unique organisation, all will be revealed. And there are a few things that Phil and I need to explain, through. So Phil, yeah.
Phil Friend
Firstly, I'm on the scheme, which means I have a vehicle provided by Motability Operations, which gives me a kind of investment in this. Yeah. sorry, Simon. I've also worked for Motability Operations in the dim and distant past, to be fair, but I maintain a real connection with the organisation just out of interest.
Simon Minty
And I am also on the scheme. I'm just in the process of getting my new car, which will come in the next few months. But I am also on the board of Motability Operations PLC as a non-executive director. And just for clarity, some of you will know not everyone, there are two organisations, Motability Foundation, which the government initially asked to set up this car leasing scheme. And there's Motability Operations PLC, which is the business part is the delivery, which Andrew is part of. And finally, we said this is going to be a show of two halves. Andrew wanted to ask Phil and me a few questions on the broad topic of disability. So our guest will be asking us a couple of questions later on.
Phil Friend
So there we are. So welcome, Andrew, it's lovely to have you. Thank you for giving us your time. I mean, we started before we started talking about how busy you are so very grateful for the time. I suppose the obvious place to start, Andrew is to go back when you joined Motability operations and maybe a few months before that, what was it that attracted you? And what? What kind of made you think this is the job for me? I want to do this stuff.
Andrew Miller
Yeah, that's good, too. Good to be here. Thanks. Thanks, Phil. And Simon, you're my boss, really. So I've got to be the best behaviour. So when I was approached about the job, I'll be very honest, I thought, it's not for me, I thought it'd be all about scooters, wheelchairs, and just sort of stuff that was just difficult, not my bag. But then, as the press reports about the job explained, it just got more and more interesting, I didn't understand the scale of this business. And we buy for those we don't know we buy 15%, currently of new cars in the UK. And our fleet size is 700,000 cars, and the value of our fleet is about 10 billion pounds. So this is huge. So it's a really huge company in itself. But then when you overlay what we do, for me, it's something that's really impactful, and that is unique. So we obviously work hard to try and ensure that our customers are kept mobile all around the car. And the organisation any money we make, gets put back into the organisation to sustain our customers in the scheme forever. And what's interesting is the appeal for me is this is the big transformation and my my background really is doing transformations of businesses over now 20 different years as CEOs have been working since I said to a mate the other day. I've been working since 1988. So I'm very old. And I talk about technology to people and I was trying to explain things like graphic equalisers to people in the audience they thought I was completely mad. But so I've done lots of transformations in commercial environments. And to me being sitting in an environment which is very commercial, highly commercial, but also have a real purpose. And the money gets reinvested into something else as good as it's brilliant. So that was the appeal. And the challenge I've been set by the board is, how do I help this organisation transition from petrol cars to electric, which to superficially just seems easy. It's like going from diesel to unleaded, or unleaded to diesel and back again, but it's not. And maybe we can talk about that a bit later. And that's what appealed to me.
Simon Minty
We will definitely come on to some of the changes. And we just wondered if they're in a personal connection or a story that sort of motivates you not only do you say the appeal of the business and the scale, but this is disability thing, is there a connection there or a story or what? You know, it's just a challenge,
Speaker 1
To be honest, I'd love to say there was some amazing story there that is there that drove me but no, we indirectly come across disability in different ways. A cousin of my wife has spinal bifida. And he is passionate car nut. And he's in his late 50s. And you know, just seeing him embrace cars and enjoy it is something is wonderful and be able to sustain that. And then my granny in Scotland was headmistress and head teacher and took great pride in the job looking after people and educating kids with cerebral palsy.
Announcer
Thank you for listening to The Way We Roll with Simon minty and Phil Friend
Phil Friend
Clearly the schemes come a very long way. I mean, I, I wonder, I mean, you've mentioned the scale of it 700,000 vehicles. Can you tell us a little bit more about how that shapes up because I suppose I'm a wheelchair user, I drive a WAV wheelchair accessible vehicle, but the majority of your customers aren't like me are they.
Speaker 1
No the fleet is 726,000 today, and of that fleet about 30,000 Are WAV cars for those who don't know a WAV car is generally a car that is adapted from a car slash van that was adapted taken into a body shop, essentially, the floor dropped and a ramp put in And that's very specialised, very expensive, very specialised, but actually probably hugely impactful. so about 30,000 of our fleet is that about another 30,000 are wheelchairs and scooters. And we are quite tight in that area, because we insist anyone takes insurance on scooters with us. So therefore, the lots of people operate offer them outside of our scheme. But it's not insured. And it's a slightly unregulated marketplace. But those two areas aside, the bulk of it are cars that are relatively unadapted. And we added, we still put adaptations into every car, whether it's a ball for the steering wheel, or whether it's great support or the stuff. But most of them are not to WAV style. And also it's for family often to drive people. So the car isn't necessarily adopted, either.
Phil Friend
We can we clarify this point, Andrew, because I think many of our listeners might not be aware that the rules that apply to getting a vehicle through Motability, can you just give
Simon Minty
and as a little intro to that we have international listeners, one of my friends in the states she was she's got dwarfism, like me, said, I want to get a new car, I've got to find a loan to buy it, then I'm gonna go to local companies and charities to pay for the adaptations. And then her family were a little bit difficult with her saying you should be doing all of this yourself. And I thought we got the the Motability Scheme here in the UK, it's a different world. So for our international peoples, how would it be described in the nutshell? Andrew?
Andrew Miller
Well, basically we, I'd say it's a car subscription service for people with disability. So basically, we give a range of cars that you can choose to take the lease with us on. And with taking a lease with us, you get not just a car for what is genuinely nice. Many of our customers don't believe it, a very good value price. You get the car. And then but you also get critically insurance, you get all roadside recovery done for you. We put you in a taxi and get your mobile if your car is off the road. We do all the servicing. When we take the car off at the end and de-fleet do you know we do 50 to 52,000 tires in a month. I drop all these really boring stats into a mix of the product Christmas time or other times of the year. And the scale of it No, it's huge. So basically, it's a car subscription service and critically, particularly as individuals conditions change. We're flexible to change the car to fit the needs. And therefore that's something other leasing company wouldn't do. So, why we exist to guess the unique aspects of what do as we use the scale to get the cost down as best we can for our customers, we are very flexible in supporting people through any transition or support they need in the car. Many of our customers, for example, have MS or have family issues, where the individual supporting is going through support changes, we fund that and then we also critically, we think about, over 50% of our customers would not be able to get insurance at a cost effective price in the open marketplace. So we're essentially managing to use our scale to get insurance affordable for our customers as well. So it's a slightly strange, it's a market failure that is not met will never be able to met by a purely free market. And what we're trying to do is step in and solve the market failure. But we're also highly commercial. And that's a really important point. We're not a charity, the charity is our regulator. We're not a charity, we're commercial. And we have to operate in a commercial way to sustain the scheme. But we're not there's no fat cat shareholders taking dividends out. There is a fat cat CEO, of course, nobody will tell you that. There's no shareholders taking dividends.
Simon Minty
That's our next question.
Andrew Miller
So yeah, it's a really interesting model. Because all the whole scheme is self sustaining. And it's about cross subsidisation, to make sure that those who would probably never be able to get a car in a commercial sense are given one essentially,
Phil Friend
But it's not. It's not Motability that decides whether you can have a car or not, is it?
Andrew Miller
No. A couple of critical things, first of all, individuals are given a more given a mobility allowance as part of their disability allowance in the UK, the PIP scheme, as you know, there's versions in Scotland, you get a mobility allowance, probably 60/70 pounds a week, you then choose whether to give it to us or not to help you get a car. So it's a choice that individuals are making with the Allowance the they are given and so one of the things I get often challenged by is is, you know, why should we step in and solve this or do this? Well, I'm gonna keep pointing out we're doing that's not our job, the government have decided to give the allowanct to individuals. And then a lot of individuals are consciously choosing whether they get to get a car with us and many don't, we only get a third of recipients of that allowance take a car with us.
Simon Minty
I, it blows my mind. Because if when we obviously I'm on the board, so we look at the numbers, and it is an amazingly competitive scheme, you wouldn't be able to get everything that you get anywhere else. And I love that I love also the mutual part of it that I'm probably the middle section now being a middle aged male that I might get to get my insurance a lot cheaper, somewhere else. But more part of the combination is the 16 year old in Newcastle, the 77 year old in St Albans called Mr. Phil Friend, we subsidise each other I love that I think it's a really cool thing. But I think we've kind of we've done a sensible bit about the scheme, we know what that is, is good that you pass that first test Andrew you know what you're doing? I let's get into some big stuff. So big challenges that you faced in your time. And I know one of them was COVID, you arrived as Chief exec and I had no one in the office, but are there challenges that are current and sort of you can see coming down the line. Yeah,
Andrew Miller
The number one challenge is transition to electric, electric cars and do a whole podcast on electric cars. And bore the pants off people didn't want me to but electric cars are fascinating because everyone thinks of it. As I said, its diesel to unleaded it's not. There's much more structural because electric cars are forcing a change in the whole car industry as well as the car itself. So if you take the car itself, generally, they're more expensive in the long run by 20 30%. And our job is to keep cars affordable. So we've got to find a way to deal with that. Secondly, the range is not quite there yet, but it will be and we know the number one feedback we get from customers is worried about the range of the cars but we know that 400 mile range cars are coming in the mid price area, which is what we do. We're not allowed by the way to do fancy cars, as you know, we're not allowed to do under the scheme rules. Cars like that's BMW or Tesla's, we're only allowed
Simon Minty
based on a sort of value of the car or is it based on how the press might react if we're a disabled person driving a fancy pants car?
Andrew Miller
It's a combination of two or three things. I think it's partly its price. But ultimately my view would be able to put whatever car on the scheme at whatever price its not our choices it's our customers choices, whether they do or not. But that aside, I think it is it's probably the right, correct challenge in many ways. This is a government allowance and therefore, a bit of green eye type stuff that people say why is someone getting the government allowance to get a fancy car and therefore restricted in the type cars, it's not our choice. The Foundation, the charity tell us what cars we can or can't have on. . And there's a practical one as well, because electric cars they go like a rocket, and the insurance categories are quite tight. So Tesla, for example, is not an insurance category that we be able to insure drivers on. Likewise, we get restricted by the type of car, the price of the car by the charity, and insurance regulators. So there's kind of three ways we get, held back.
Phil Friend
The thing that's, that's driving this whole agenda and the electric vehicle issue. You and I Andrew we've had conversations, I've had conversations with Motability Operations about the WAV side of electric vehicles, because the changes to vans and small vans is huge, for me to drive them. But then you've got this new battery configuration, which really gets in the way of that. But I suppose the overall objective is to ensure that disabled people, when safe to do so can can have their own personal transport, they can be independent. That's the nature of the scheme, isn't it? And that hasn't changed. I don't think over the years,
Andrew Miller
no. And as I've got into, I've just become more passionate about this, when you were both really helpful. I remember we met for dinner early on, in my start talking about this. And what's interesting is you set me up nicely because I chose dinner in London and then you both pointed out when we met What a nightmare it is for you to get to dinner because a) where you live Phil but also Simon just driving in London, and I didn't I didn't understand what it's like to find a parking space within a few 100 metres of the location of the place I chose I just chose the place I've normally choose and then a) you got to find the space and then b) getting to the damn place is so your micro example I've just seen replicated day in day out and the job I do and it's been eye popping for me I did not understand how difficult being disabled is in getting around and just enjoying life it's one of these things as a non disabled individual I'm I'm epitome of privileged, white male and pale stale, etc, etc. It's it's it's just eye popping, how challenging it is to get around and, and also how demanding is I hear the calls I listen to the calls and our contact centre. And, you know, customers tell me stories of just the challenges they have and getting day to day life done it's really difficult. And it's not patronising it's not about that. It's just bloody hard. So if we can make it a bit easier, that's a great thing to do. Yeah,
Simon Minty
exactly that. And it's about being a part of the solution. I one thing I will add here, there's an app appy parking, which I got through Motability Operations. And there's certain cities, it's done around the UK. And it does a sort of a Bay View. So there's disabled bays, and it will tell me where they are. And now when I get close to where I need to go to press the button, and it will tell me where all the bays are, and also where all the free parking is, which is remarkable. And that's there, all these extra bits. I think I love the fact when Motability Ops can be part of the solution.
Andrew Miller
Can I give you an example of electric which tried to explain why it's different. So charging a car. And everyone's says it's like an arms race to get as many charge points as you can around the UK. That's fine. But if you're disabled or two things that are a problem with this, number one, no one is rating these parking spaces at all about whether they are disabled, friendly or not. And we are trying to get the lead on that now with our app. And we're thinking about that, because SatNav will get to it just like everything else in disability, I realise it's at the end of the queue. And the danger is we don't build a design at the beginning. Everyone forgets, right? So so we're trying to encourage people to think about that. And the charity did a brilliant piece of work to prove what a perfect template is. So there's the accessibility when you arrived there. But the other one which is really scary, which I have not understood, until I've done this job is if you're charging a car, it can take as you know, several hours to charge an electric car depending on the voltage and where you are. And quite often people will sit in the car while that's getting done. So you can if you're disabled, you can rock up to get your car charging, sit down, read the paper, listen to your podcast but then someone can drive up next to you and do the same and leave their car in charge. But you could get stuck if you're disabled because most of the bays at the moment have no width on the side to be able to get out if you're if you're physically disabled. And we've had a couple instances where customers have phoned us to the contact centre saying Help I can think of calling. I'm stuck in my car for an hour or two. Now this person next to me is gone and wandered off to do their shopping at a supermarket or going for a Costa or whatever. And I'm literally stuck. And I can't uncharge, and I can't get out my car to take the cable out and uncharge now this stuff had never even crossed my mind until I've done this job? Fascinatingt,
Phil Friend
I suppose one when we were just talking a minute ago about the challenges you face one of the big leverages, if that's the right word, I feel you've got is 700,000 vehicles. I mean, why aren't I'm a simple chap why aren't these companies talking? Or why aren't they listening to you saying, Why aren't the bays bigger? Or why aren't these charging points. RIDC I declare an interest here? the Research Institute did a lot of work with the Foundation on the ease of using charging devices, which was very revealing. But I'm wondering about your you've got some serious muscle in this game? What is it that stops you? Or what stops that from influencing what's going on?
Andrew Miller
I don't think we have serious muscle in the game I think it's nothing's deliberate when you point this out to people they go oh crikey I never realised course. It's obvious. It just it's indicative to me what I was trying to say is what's been eye popping for me is that disability is an afterthought.
Simon Minty
just to jump in like that for me is we use the word ableism now, which is prioritising the needs of non disabled people. And that's exactly what it is. And it's the way it's always been, we are the last to be and we're not even considered unless we kick up a bit of a stink. So that's what ableism is, it's carrying on and then only later realising there's a group of people be excluded. And I think it's unforgivable now, because if it was 30/40 years ago, we know there were different times. But this is a brand new infrastructure is crazy, Sorry, I interrupted.
Andrew Miller
That's true. And I get more wound up about this as I get older. What I've also realised, of course, is that everyone is going to get disabled all the time. So this isn't just an issue. This is actually a fundamental my mother in law is 87. She had really bad sepsis about five years ago, and got to lose part of her hand and heel. And she's just about just able to drive by having a ball on the steering wheel and her husband can't drive for various reasons. So what's been learning, great learning for me is this is a customer who doesn't fall under our scheme, because it was all she became disabled after the age limits. And the PIP llowance time frame was experiencing the same stuff that all our customers experience day in and day out. So she's one example. In an ageing population. This is something that is much much bigger than the disabled in inverted commas community, therefore, it's really important and people should be thinking about it. But no one's thinking about this stuff at all.
Simon Minty
Could you see a day and I'm we're going off the brief now. Could you see a day where Motability Operations or the Foundation say, we don't worry whether you get PIP or not, we will serve all disabled customers, you might have to have a two system,
Andrew Miller
That's beyond my pay grade I'll get into trouble we offer a customer service, I would love to be able to do that. But that does not mean that we have to keep the money we the whole scheme is about self is keeping this scheme going. And as you know, if we use our profits to support other areas, we'd be in trouble from the regulator research charity and the government. So we can't do that. But But yeah, it's interesting commercially, I'd love to be able to talk to people like Bupa or Saga and replicate our contact centre experience. And also the scale of working with converters and other people to offer a broader range of support services to many people don't know where to get this information from or how to do it when they want to get disabled. We spend 7 million pounds a year adding adaptations to a car not the big adaptations, not the WAV type conversions but balls and steering wheels or brakes 27 million pounds a year. And under the current rules, we have to chuck that stuff away when the car comes back. We're not allowed to reuse it. But if we're doing that for 700,000 people or two hundred thousand a year devices that's 27 million pounds. There's a whole world out there. That is probably unregulated, even more wild West than charging and all the stuff. I'm going on a bit now!
Simon Minty
What does happen is it just shows the scale of all what's going on. We're dealing with a third of the people there's another two thirds out there plus all the people are not even on PIP I mean it is remarkable. I wanted to slightly change and sorry, Phil, I know I'm bit hogging, but you mentioned contact centres, and we've got amazing teams of people that work there. I'm wondering in terms of just moving away from customers, colleagues, staff, I mean, how's your team? Have there been changes? I mean, do you need a skill to work at Motability Operations or a passion or what?
Andrew Miller
I just want a bunch of people who've got common sense and a brain, and I'll give them a great job to do. I mean, it's about solving problems for our customers, we're a big believer in encouraging our Contact Centre staff to be able to solve the problem. So we deliberately don't want a situation where people get get the answer computer says no, or they get handed on to a manager. So we give people delegated ability to do that. And that isn't for everyone, some people like that. A lot of people struggle with that responsibility, therefore finding people who are willing to do that. And you know, we're not we're trying to solve problems for customers.
Phil Friend
I suppose the other side of this work and thinking about the challenges, again, what you've covered so far is the obviously the switch from petrol to electrical diesel to electric, which is a massive issue and is affecting the world, not just obviously, Motability. But there are real challenges for them, and you've said what they are, you've also got the weakness in the chain. For me, it's always been the dealerships, the ones selling the cars. Now, I know a lot of work has been done over the years to improve that. But I certainly remember saying to Motability, your weakest link is your worst distributor or your worse garage because customers touch you through the contact centres, which Simon just raised. And I think generally, I don't know whether our listeners agree, but I think that contact centres Motability have a hugely, they're very popular, they get very high scores on customer service. But the other place where we touch you is through buying the car from the dealer in a sense, and the reception we get there, and any any comments they have you've been doing any major work in that area to try and make sure that dealers get it because as you've said several times, most people don't get disability somehow it can't be oh, well, I never thought that the deal is still doing that, or are they? Are they different now?
Andrew Miller
I guess without running an advertorial for us so we'll set up a contact centre for us. We're getting amazing customer service scores and it isn't me saying it we audited it, we know that also our partners we can't forget we have about 2000 people in Notability. But our partners in the RAC Europecar Quickfit also employs Direct Line, there our insurance from our insurance partner and 600 people employed just on Motability in Liverpool the RAC have 160 people employed in Birmingham on Motability QuickFit 2324. So we've got a virtual contact centre. And again, the ethos is still very good. I can also visualise it now the complaints I get I do get complaints about them. And it's not perfect, but it works. But youre right the dealers are the frontline of this. And the feedback we get is generally people are on their fourth and fifth lease with us. So they go back to the same individuals and more that relationship is the same individual that works really well and there's trust there. But two things are happening in the dealer world first of all, electric cars is as complicated to a car salesperson as it is to anyone else. And they don't have the answers you've got to mke sure and also the makers changing so what you might have bought a Vauxhall before but you want to try BYD that will be completed as Chinese cars coming that's completely different sales processes a new experience. And then there are further challenge is that manufacturers are rationalising dealers, they're moving from what's called a franchise model to an agency model over time, and that means that the kind of family nature of a dealership is changing, it's becoming more functional relationship with the manufacturer and therefore his lot more cost pressure and other pressures on the dealership. That's a very long winded way of saying I don't think it's perfect yet and we need to look at it because I think you know if you're looking at areas of complaints that's the one that I think were the biggest pain points at the moment for customers now is in that choice of car in that experience with a dealer and it's not working as well as it should do. Still working really but it's not as good as it should be so
Phil Friend
sorry sorry Andrew, I want to know I get excited that I interrupt people
Simon Minty
Phil Paxman coming in
Phil Friend
What you triggered in my head was the shift in the way we buy vehicles now and one of them is online and virtually we we can build our own car online now. Two questions around that really from your point of view one is that these these experiences work for disabled people ie can you fit a steering knob in the virtual world. And does it did the websites work if you're perhaps visually impaired because visually impaired people are eligible to be on the scheme under certain circumstance? Two questions in one way but I think this move towards the virtual build your car online and then buy it sort of stuff. That's that's gaining ground, isn't it?
Andrew Miller
Yeah, I mean, I often say that we're just stuff I've done and other companies in my previous experiences, I was CEO at the guardian for six years and moved up from print to digital's Autotrader, CFO and moved that from print to digital one of the team that did that, and then latterly, was running McDonald's, which in Scandinavia for three years, which is completely different, but it is actually no different people are buying your burgers through Deliveroo and other places. So what I've learned and all the experiences, which we're seeing in a slower pace in the car industry is like digital is like water going downhill you can't stop it, it's got to find a way to infiltrate every part of everyone's life. So the best thing to do is not be in denial of it, you got to find a way to solve problems with digital, it's gonna happen. The two arrays, you describe websites, website, purchasing, and look and feel is all coming. It's not there yet. And it's certainly just like I talked about car parking spaces or WAV design, it certainly hasn't not thought at all about disability in that mix at all. And, you know, we have to choose where we play and what we do. And this is one of the areas of scratching my head. And I don't quite know how far we get into this and how much we're getting into. But I do know that over time, people will be buying their cars and digital way transacting even last two weeks ago, Amazon in the States announced they've done a deal with I can't remember which company that basically you can buy a car on Amazon in the States. So imagine, I was thinking do my consumer shopping the other day, and I was I think the Imagine Walmart just dropped a $26,000 whatever car on Amazon and then what direct referrals would be after that, we'd be coming in, I don't know what it would be exhaust mufflers
Simon Minty
next day delivery delivery. By seven,
Andrew Miller
I think we're a long way from that, but it's gonna, absolutely gonna come and then all these issues he talked about, I don't know how we're gonna solve it. And the biggest pain point now we got slightly higher termination rate than we want in electric cars. And it's because people are assuming they bought a Vauxhall before, say, we won't pick on Vauxhall could be anyone a Ford. And they assume just because it's the same manufacturer will be roughly the same boot space for your wheelchair and stuff like that. And the dealer principal doesn't quite know the details and they get the car and think well actually not doesn't work as well and fit size that we want to. So it's not many of that yet. But I can see the feedback I get I get daily feedback on what's happening. And that's one of the theories and everything.
Simon Minty
And how far can we get this is a loaded question. And you because I still don't know the answer, but I don't think our listeners do and we deliver a service or you deliver a service. But we're not a campaigning organisation. So there's this bit that we can think about our customers, we want to get it the best for them. But how far do we go? And if someone was like, I want Motability to do this, where do they can write to you But then presumably, it's part of the Foundation or government? And there's Yeah, how do we balance this getting brilliant for our customers, but also we're not actually campaigning in itself?
Andrew Miller
Gosh, this is this is the tightrope I walk on a daily basis, my job's someone's job is the kind of external side, I feel sometimes we can't win on the left or the right. The right wing was definitely you know, definitely no noise. The kind of benefit scroungers type argument, the green eyes of a new car and all that stuff, should the benefits be restricted. And that is a policy decision nothing to do with us, we just take the number of people who get the allowance and manage it through to the best of our ability, but that noise is there and then the left of centre that's you've made whopping great profits over the last few years, which we have because of used car prices. Why don't you either nationalise it or give it back to the government. And I can't win that argument. I'm trying to explain to people I'm really worried about this transition to electric. This is not going to be affordable for customers, I want to use the profits to put back into that. So this is a daily tightrope I walk and I probably get questioned a day around this from different areas. We are not about policy we can't be about I just got to factually say what's going on and in factually represent the challenges I can see in my horizon scan for our customers and looking I can see what's coming 2/3,4 years out, and I've got to just try and explain to people we're trying to navigate that which is really difficult and to sustain the scheme and I'm worried about that and use their resources in the right way. And therefore anything which if you'd like his policy or advocating around that is something I'll stand up for so accessible charging spaces, I've got to stand up for our customers on that basis. Got to stand up for affordability of cars, petrol cars, electric cars and 30 40% more expensive. I've got to stand up for the fact that only 40% of our customers are able to charge at home. They have to the other 6% have to do on the road. Now why should VAT be double on the road than it is at home and Why should some chargers be able to be 50 pence a kilowatt hour on the motorway yet seven pence at home. So I got to point out in a factual way to politicians that the current electric car policy in UK is unintentionally regressive. It favours company car drivers, and those who have got higher income and those who got house, not our customer base, who generally live not in houses and have an average household income, which, again, blows my mind, average household income for our customers, including benefits is £20,000 per family. And therefore, these amounts of money are materially impactful for our customers, these kind of VAT differences and stuff. So that's the stuff I'm going to get, as you can tell, get excited about and passionate about, but present it in a non political way, as best I can just say, this is the problem I've got. Given that I know manufacturers are going to stop making petrol cars, over the next six years, we are only going to be able to offer electric cars within six to nine years. electric car. So therefore, these are the issues we have to solve to make it affordable for our customers, otherwise, our customers won't be able to get access to the full benefits of electric cars. And by the way, what we're seeing is we're going to, it doesn't matter whether it's disabled or not, it's generally people on lower incomes. So the issues we're facing, because we've got the largest single electric car fleets, we're seeing it on mass now that most people are only going to start seeing in the next four or five years as it becomes much bigger than that.
And if our customers are prepared to give 10 15% of their income to us, because they want a car or need a car. I mean, that's really significant to keep them going
We are even more under pressure Simon
Simon Minty
I'm supportive. But it makes me pause for thought is what? Yeah,
Phil Friend
how does? How does Motability? I guess we were to begin then to move a bit towards you asking us stuff because that wasn't quite happy to delay that as long as Yeah, well, I mean, in the same concept. I mean, maybe this is the question that leads to that, Andrew, because I'm very interested in how Motability operations gathers intelligence from its customers to help decide what its next steps will be. You've made it very clear. And I totally understand it, where you walk the tightrope, you have to be here and not there. And you have to be honest about this, this and this. But how do you grapple with the market? And how do you kind of gather data, which tells you what people like me and Simon as customers might be wanting in the years ahead and stuff. How does that work?
Andrew Miller
That's a definitely Jeremy Paxman questions are always a good one. Because because I'm learning in this job, that history of having to self declare your disability is toxic. And I come from businesses that have been, you know, consumer focused and all about insights and making interesting insight to make decisions. Yes, suddenly, I've hit a big wall here is that the history of this is people are wary of giving at least wary is gentle way of saying it really nervous and scared about giving information in case it gets abused in other ways, particularly when it comes to pip assessments, etc, all that kind of stuff. Yet, I need that information. So I can't tell you at the moment, I would love to be able to tell you of 700,000 people in our scheme, what the mix of disabilities is, what areas matter, for example, good because car technology is gonna change. If you've got a neuro diversity challenge, I would love to talk to manufacturers about designing the interior of a car that really benefits you and helps you be able to cover the screens, I'd love to be able to know how many of our customers have physical disability that seat warmers should be standard, as opposed to an added extra, because it will fundamentally make the journey more comfortable. But I can't do that at the moment, because it's just anathema. And DWP can't provide data either. And for all the good reasons, you know, and therefore I can't find a way to and I'd love to have a proper dialogue with our customers to say how do I do this. And then the other area is tracking car. So if you take a hire car, you'll be tracked all the way through. And I need that information. Because it allows me then to assess should I be offering people in cities saying to them, it doesn't make sense to buy a car, why don't you take the allowance, and we can get a taxi for you every so often and you maybe keep your 60 quid a month, maybe you put 20 quid our away so we can get taxis for you. That's a direct opposite of also to get into that kind of analysis. And then the final bit is we're doing stuff around. It's a minority report type situation where we can now with technology in cars you can predict if a car is going to break down and you can actually take it off the road and fix it before it breaks down. So if you do trial with the RAC and we've done it with 500 customers. And in that small cohort of customers, we find two cars where the gearbox about to fail. And we've picked it up before and we've sort of knocked on the door, the customer has a nice quiet day cup of tea, it's and we're taking a car away. There's a gearbox is gonna have to think that we didn't do that, but But it's that kind of situation where we can look at it. So I would love to find a way to do this, but it's such a difficult issue within the scheme in the community.
Phil Friend
it's part of part of that is it's the classic, isn't it, people aren't slow in sharing information when they want a blue badge. So I suppose what your customers need to understand probably better than they do that by giving you this more personal information, knowing it will be safe and and all that they're going to get a better service. And I think it's that message, maybe, you know, the disability world that Simon and I live in, can also help with that by, you know, telling our people, the people that
Simon Minty
we never stopped talking about it. So
Phil Friend
this idea that the you know, information being abused is one side of this equation, but actually giving Motability the kind of information they need in order to make good plans for us.
Andrew Miller
Why right now, right now, we know the Chinese manufacturers are got ships ready to bring all these cars to the UK companies like BYD good cars, electric cars. I would love to be able to go over and say we'd buy 200,000 cars a year, probably 250,000 cars a year. And therefore we're bidding for volumes. I'd love to go and say to them, Look, can I do a deal that I think in the next year, we're going to have 20,000 cars where people will really benefit from you can see the standard or and then do a deal that we couldn't find a way to do that. And then forget it more affordable, but kind of that kind of conversation because I just don't have the data.
Simon Minty
What I also like about that is that is advocacy or campaigning, but it's about a pure customer needs. So it's a really different subtle way. But it's for me it's benefits us as customers. I do wonder if there's a way and I don't know if it's data and law and privacy or whether it's just as you say reluctance of people. I remember working with the Disability Rights Commission, and I was training their contact centre staff and they were a bit worried about talking about disability. And I mean, you're the Disability Rights Commission. People are phoning you about discrimination based on their disability, how can you not even proceed? If you don't have that conversation? And then it twisted it or challenged it to improveit. I just sometimes I don't know, it's a hard call. Because I want to know why. What's in it for me, although risky bits,
Phil Friend
I think that's the bottom of it. If you've got 700,000 customers, and you send them out a survey, which asked them all sorts of personal questions, but they don't I'm not saying you do this, Andrew, but if you did, but don't be surprised if you don't get much back, I mean, our panel at RIDC, we have a fabulous return rate And they all sign up by giving us all sorts of information because without it, our panel needs to represent disabled people across the UK. So we have to ask them, What is it you're managing, but it's very clear why they're answering it. Because to be a member of our panel, we need to know that stuff is not the same with Motability. But there seems to me to be there must be a way for us to help your customers understand that this information is really important in terms of planning the future and making cars as good. I love the idea of a neurodiverse vehicle with a blinds on the windows
Andrew Miller
They spend all this money on making cars ultra fast. Instead of spending money on making cars go even faster why not spend it on making cars more suitable for neurodiverse people..
Phil Friend
Yeah, and that would be so interesting to do. Wouldn't it be nice?
Simon Minty
To let me ask you you said you know, I'm I'm relatively new to the topic of disability. And you said, is it possible I might ask you a few questions. And I'm gonna set it up in the sense of how has it been coming to an organisation with someone who is ostensibly as far as we know, not a disabled person? And then working in this field? How has it been? And are there areas where you're like, I still don't get this or this is confusing for me.
Andrew Miller
Its been as I said, it's genuinely been eye opening and really rewarding for me because I just didn't get it. And just other examples like there was just so that part has been really rewarding for me. But as a CEO in a more woak in inverted commas world, I'm 57 I'm an old, whatever now at least. And like I've got three kids in their late 20s It was more than when I moan about certain topics they tell me to shut up and get with it. Programme type stuff. The one worry I have is the bear traps and the minefield I'm walking through that I don't unintentionally provoke a discussion or antagonise people in this kind of wokish world, and I hate to use that word, but that's the perception. And that is any CEO, I think the matter really whether in this job or not, that's probably one of their biggest worries right now, and whether it's with their own workforce, and demands that are placed on on, on us now as were trying to navigate post COVID. And so that our customer base for sure. And the kind of areas I said, you said earlier, you're very good Simon, I've seen you in action that correcting people's language, particularly, to get them to think about this and say stuff the right way. And my biggest worry of all, given the job I do is I say something really, really stupid, and offensive, and offensive, not in my head. And not in my intent, but offensive in the way I use my language because I'm 57, but it comes through. And it's something that's been purged very effectively in gender very hard to write effectively or reasonably effectively in ethnicity. I think disability is something and it's an ableist, for example, you talked about that earlier. You know, I don't really know how to use that expression and how to think about it, it's just not I'm starting from the negative I've been 57 years of you start with people who are disabled and an ableist mindset and it's very hard to just turn it around and do a different way. But that's my probably my one of my biggest personal ways I'm trying to do the right thing. But I worry is how I'm going to offend people or doing the wrong thing and that can lead me dangerously lead me to tiptoe not deal with difficult topics, because you don't want to do the right way. So so how do I know the history of the scheme was around people with physical disability, over the physical disability disability, they will continue to look at the neuro diverse community, particularly in a world where benefits will be under pressure. And people are making choices. And also where neurodiversity is a much more subtle disability, both in scale of individuals and the ability to diagnose it or prove it, etc, etc. As I struggled with because it's neurodiversity is relatively new in my age group understanding
Phil Friend
The base camp for me is that that there, let's say for argument's sake, because it changes every week, there are 12 million disabled people in the UK. Okay, now, the lot in the wheelchairs, look at the lot, who aren't, and think whatever they think I mean, this idea that we're a sort of liberated group who really get it get the other groups. I mean, I can remember back in the 80s, where women made it very clear that the disability movement was sexist. They had not that men ran the disability movement, women were not so wherever you are, black people weren't even at the meeting. So it's kind of this idea that we're different from other human beings in terms of being racist, sexist ableist or whatever. I think the neuro diverse community have got a massive job on to help educate the rest of us. And I've talked about the rest of us being disabled people, what the challenges are that they face, and there you sit this woke chap with three kids that wherever trying to make sense of all this, thinking that we already have made sense of it. No, we haven't. We're struggling with some of this stuff, gender fluidity, all of that debate in the disability context. How does that work? I have no idea. But what I suppose we all do. And you do. And I know you do it, because I've seen you, is you listen. And you ask questions, which are the intention of which is to uncover the things that you need to understand in order to make the world a better place for the rest of us? That's the I think a lot is about intention. Why are you asking me this very personal question. Are you just being nosy? Are you being ableist? Or are you genuinely wanting to understand what it is I'm dealing with, so you can help me with it? That's now I think as a CEO in a very big organisation where a lot of the time we're not listening to you directly. We're listening to something you wrote or somebody said, you've said or whatever. The bear traps are everywhere. But what's the intention of Motability? Operations? What's it for? What's it trying to do? Yeah,
Andrew Miller
Yeah that line going keep that focus is really important, but it's, it's, I look at the disabled community that phase. And what's really interesting compared to other I hate even saying other areas of ESG because as a CEO, you have to justify ESG agenda across all different things. It's because the nature of disability first of all, unlike perhaps ethnicity at times or gender, the individuals in the community are all, much smaller groups who don't coalesce very easily together. So it's very hard to have one voice you're talking to to get the right answer, which I find really hard. And the other one is what I feel it is a big part of the scheme. People don't want to be wearing a badge saying I'm disabled, if anything, it's walking away from it. And I know that's not the case in the community, some people very actively want to say they are, but compared to perhaps to other communities and other ESG challenges. This is one where people are almost wanting not to talk about the disability. And that's really challenging, because I know that was ethos of why the three wheel balloon fibreglass cars went is because the the screened, that person is disabled, whereas only right,
Phil Friend
they were also lethal as well.
Andrew Miller
But But pluses is that in the current world, and I get the feedback all the time is no one realises I'm driving a car, and people are not judging me for disability. So that's a really hard area to navigate.
Simon Minty
I do remember a board meeting and it was a joyous one where we were talking about the problem with electric vehicles, particularly wheelchair accessible vehicles. And we started saying, well, could we design and create something that would be better for wheelchair users with the battery. And we went all the way down path. And then eventually we were going to get this one singular car. That was the one. And I the nice bit was it wasn't me or other disabled people on the board. It was someone said hold on have we gone back to invalid carriges!. I mean, just a very modern one. But we just disabled people, that's what you get. I mean, like, no, that's not what we're trying to do. I think being the chief executive at Motability Operations, you can't avoid this other the chief exec could avoid it or they can palm it off. You can't you have to engage with the disability part. And I think my best way to describe ableism if you ever need to use it is it's forgetting or even worse, excluding our customers, your customers. Ableism is where you forget that group of people, the people that we actually are our customers. And it's a massive bit.
Andrew Miller
You'll have to get me on to the remedial CEO, of course, in this stuff, because I'm not gonna go I've got to go through this again. Because
Simon Minty
we, we can do stuff. The bit I love about neurodiversity at the moment is they say it's just another thing. It's just another part of being human. And I quite like that as a disability bit. So it's not this big, scary big lump. It's just the difference of people. But you said something else. And I don't know about Phil's on the same The reason I was on the scheme, when I 16 Because it was a good deal. And then I left it because of shame. I don't want to have Motability stickers all over my car. Ever since I've returned and being part of the organisation is I do want that a green eye, or people being envious or going bloody hell, that's a brilliant scheme. That not that you shouldn't have that. But just I want to have pride that I'm on the scheme, I've got a car through Motability ops, it's an amazing thing. And that's that you should be the best part
Andrew Miller
UK should be proud of the scheme is that you said earlier, your friends who are not being listened to this or not in the UK are kind of scratching their head, what the heck is this thing. And to me, it's a wonderful thing that the UK has devised and created a self sustaining, I take I've got 10 billion pounds or so 8 billion pounds worth of debt as a company that would otherwise be the company schemes operating on the government balance sheet that we're happily self sustaining, maybe talking about profits if you wanted to, because I'm happy to justify the large profits we make. And we're using that to sustain the scheme for the good for our customers in the future. That's a wonderful thing we should be proud of. And our customers should be proud that they're part of this themselves helping itself sustain as well, for the broader population. That to me is brilliant.
Phil Friend
I, I think that's, we've, we've been talking for nearly an hour. So we're gonna have to draw this to a close. But I think what you've just been saying Andrew, is not a bad place to end. Because I think when you look at the scheme, and what it provides British people who have various difficulties, it provides opportunities to be together with your families, or it gives you an opportunity to get to work, it gives you an opportunity to be independent about getting to the hospital yourself or whatever it is the kind of freedoms that come with this scheme. And I you know, you know a lot more about what it saving in terms of costs, because by having my own vehicle, which is funded in the way is what does that what does that allow me to do that? I mean, I've been working I'm severely disabled person that had 50 years in work. I paid tax, you know, so when people say to me, you get this allowance? I say Yeah, and I paid for it. Exactly. Thank you very much. that whole message of this is a scheme that really helps disabled people live full and rich lives. That's what it is. And it's not perfect, and there'll be all sorts of issues around it. But that's the objective, isn't it surely gonna
Andrew Miller
Can I give you one example, which makes me get up in the morning. And maybe it's not very British and a bit cheesy, but I'm going to tell you anyway, we do a thing called Family Fund. And that's something that isn't funded by Pip. And we find ourselves with the foundation and self sustaining and Family Fund. This is a situation where you've had a child who is born disabled, and it's probably got a life. But a short life, basically, what we do is we fund a car for you and your family during that really difficult time for you to have no hassles in that space, and enjoy life as a family. And we do it through the scheme, we fund ourselves and 500 families that have massive impact through that. And the correspondence I get from the families involved in this sort of team gets in is just fantastic. And I think it's brilliant. And if we're able to do stuff like that, then that to me, that's that makes a huge difference for those 500 families who are on it right now. And it will always change. And that is a life changing position. So that's a brilliant scheme.
Phil Friend
Well, Andrew, we started off by saying thank you for giving us your time today. And and that still holds good because and now there's a kind of sense, I hope for the listener of the scale of this operation and what you're actually involved in, and it's reach its impact and so on. But, but actually, as someone who I feel, I know the scheme pretty well, you said a lot of things today that I have to go away and think a bit more about because I didn't fully appreciate some of them. But really grateful for your time. And thank you very much.
Simon Minty
a little add on for me. I want the Chief Exec of Motability operations to be brilliant at business. First and foremost, that's for me, this is a massive business. And it is the person who runs it needs to be brilliant at business, all the things that come with that, then there's just this extra bit that is unique set of customers that you need to have that awareness and that understanding or there's board members or speaking to our customers, listening to the calls all that stuff that just you're always Yeah. And I like that you're interested in it. And usually people who say I don't want to get it wrong, and I want to get it better. They they're the good eggs. It's the ones who go this is a load of baloney. They're the ones that we have the problem with. So yeah, good luck with it. There's some big challenges ahead.
Andrew Miller
Thank you both. I appreciate the chance to talk about it a bit more. And I didn't even get onto my other topics of WAV cars electric or in getting me on to charging solutions for people on the road.
Phil Friend
Well, we can always have you back.
Andrew Miller
Well, the listeners have probably had enough by now.
Phil Friend
So we'll we'll find out they'll tell us I
Simon Minty
they will they'll tell us the things we didn't ask you. So that's when we
Andrew Miller
probably get most of correspondence.
Phil Friend
But I think in a genuine sense if any of our listeners do want to communicate with you, not necessarily directly but I have an issue or a question they want to ask around Motability they can obviously send it to us but but they could also contact we'll put in the show notes the contact details for Motability Operations so people can't do that. But brilliant. Thank you so much, Andrew, it's been great.
Andrew Miller
Thank you.
Announcer
This is The Way We Roll presented by Simon Minty and Phil Friend. You can email us at mintyandfriend@gmail.com or just search for minty and friend on social media. We're on Facebook, Twitter and LinkedIn
Transcribed by https://otter.ai