The Way We Roll
A seriously funny take on life from the disability driven duo... Simon Minty and Phil Friend.
The Way We Roll
Getting the partnership right and being bold: Alice Maynard CBE DBA and Richard Hawkes OBE
Our guests this month are Alice Maynard and Richard Hawkes, formerly of Scope, a leading disability charity in the UK. In 2010, Alice became Chair, and shortly after, Richard joined as Chief Executive Officer.
During their time leading Scope, it went through a significant transformation and a turbulent time. Significant changes included closing services used by disabled people, which attracted praise and condemnation. Getting the organisation on a stronger footing by restoring its reserves and the modernisation of processes and policies were significant but less visible. We talk to Alice and Richard about how they formed a formidable and effective partnership to achieve their aims whilst facing many challengers.
We ask them both about how (and why) they joined Scope and what they achieved and are proud of. We explore being strategic and bold and going against those who love you. There are some revealing tales of their time working together.
We also explore today’s challenges, what can organisations do better and what their leadership philosophies are.
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Announcer 0:11
This is the Way We Roll, presented by Simon Minty and Phil Friend. You can email us at mintyandfriend@gmail.com or just search for minty and friend on social media. We're on Facebook, Twitter and LinkedIn.
Simon Minty 0:31
Hello and welcome to The Way We Roll with me Simon Minty
Phil Friend 0:34
and me, Phil Friend
Simon Minty 0:36
this month, we have two guests. Both have been significant figures in advancing the rights and opportunities for people with disabilities. They are Alice Maynard, CBE and Richard Hawkes. Alice and Richard worked together through their involvement with Scope, a leading disability charity in the UK. Lovely to have you both.
Phil Friend 1:00
So first, Alice Maynard is known for her impressive leadership and advocacy in the disability field. Her work involves strategic consultancy through her company Future Inclusion, she has focused much of her efforts on improving the lives of disabled people. As the chair of Scope from 2008 to 2014 she developed a high performing board and recruited Richard as the CEO to lead the executive team, restoring the organization's reserves and developing how it operated.
Simon Minty 1:30
And Richard was CEO of Scope from 2010 to 2015 playing a pivotal role in the charities evolution and its efforts to support disabled people. Richard's work involves strategic initiatives aimed at enhancing the visibility of issues facing disabled people and driving societal change towards inclusivity and accessibility. Richard is currently Chief Exec of British Asian Trust,
Phil Friend 1:55
So we'll start by exploring their time at Scope, but move to what is happening now and the future for disability rights and inclusion, and talk to them about their own current work.
Simon Minty 2:05
Well, we can ask you both this question, but if I can come to you first, Alice, can you share your journey towards becoming one of the key figures in the disability rights movement and and what motivated you to take up a leadership role at Scope
Alice Maynard 2:20
So I'm not sure I would have necessarily thought of myself as a leader in the disability rights movement. I would label my sister Sue Maynard Campbell as more of that than than me. I just kind of swam in her wake, really. But once I had understood the impact of social model. I felt strongly that it was important to try to engage with organisations, which we did through our consultancy. Mine and Sue's consultancy and then Phil later on and just to try to make change happen in society, to take away the barriers that disabled people face. And I had done quite a bit of non executive work on charity boards in my local area, and I got approached about the Scope role, and felt that it was a real opportunity to engage with an organisation that supposedly was a big, nasty disability charity, but which seemed to be on a path to change and try to help to propel that change. And I nearly lost my sister over it, because she was not happy that I was becoming the chair of a big, nasty disability charity. So it took me quite a lot of effort to explain why I thought it was really important that we as disabled activists, worked with organizations that were genuinely trying to make change. Did
Simon Minty 4:05
Did she come around to that? I know she's not with us anymore,
Alice Maynard 4:09
She did come round to that. Yes, it didn't take that long. It was sort of grudging to start with, but then she got quite enthusiastic, actually,
Phil Friend 4:20
I suppose it's it's fair, isn't it Alice to say that the movement itself was beginning to be less angry about some of those things at that point. Would you say because there was this real issue, they were the enemy, weren't they, that whole charity model stuff?
Alice Maynard 4:36
Yeah, I'm not sure about that, actually, because there were a lot of people that stopped talking to me. Oh, genuinely did me. And I don't think Sue ever stopped being angry. Okay, so I, I'm, I would question that.
Simon Minty 4:53
We may well return to the idea of sort of getting inside the tent and, you know, being outside it. But, I mean, Richard, it's. I was, I know I don't know your sort of personal disability history, but how did you get involved in disability and taking up the leadership role at scope?
Richard Hawkes 5:08
I had a background prior to right and the not for profit sector. Mainly, I'd spent a long time as Chief Exec of a small national disability development organization. So so I'd had 13 years experience of sort of Global Disability Issues, and then I went to work. I was at VSO, another large international development organization actually did have a disability strand to it but it wasn't a disability organization, and then I basically was approached by the headhunter to consider the Scope job. Didn't think that I would stand a chance of getting it. Met Alice for the first time, sitting across an interview table from her probably about 15 years ago now, and went away from that really excited about hopefully getting that job, and then got a call saying that Alice wanted to appoint me to the job. And so I think I you know, I definitely haven't come from a place of knowing a lot about the disabled people's movements and a lot of the issues that you just mentioned, but I was aware enough to know about the issues about rights, issues about power. I'd come across a number of a number of disability activists before, so I knew about those issues, but it was only I think, it was, you know, diving into Scope that things really, you know, that I learned so much about those and, you know, so initially, I just thought, on my first day, if everybody had said, what you what you were all just saying about how the big disability charities were the enemy of the movement, I thought, What on earth is that about? But I very quickly understood why, and I very quickly understood why disabled people would have felt like that about those charities and why they needed to change. And so I think that then led into this sort of partnership. I think that Alice and I had where I very quickly understood the role that I could play as an ally, and I'm trying to drive the change that was required in those organizations. Because I completely understood why people were angry with.
Phil Friend 7:28
But I was very struck when the two of you worked together, how much of a partnership you were, I mean, to the external world, it was the sort of Dream Team. You two were clearly very, very together and working very collaboratively. And obviously, as a non disabled person, Richard, I'm guessing, and Alice is a disabled woman, kind of, there were some real strengths around all of that. But what was that like? How did that develop? How did you become so kind of well together, in a sense, Alice, I don't know if you want to kick off with that.
Speaker 1 8:06
Well I think with any chair and chief exec relationship, there is, as the Association of Chairs so nicely puts it, there's a question of balance. So there's a whole thing around which of you has the strengths or the the capacity, or whatever it is to deal with a particular issue and and you split the work. Now that doesn't mean you split the operational and the strategic, because non execs should always stay in the strategic noses in, fingers out stuff and and chief exec takes care of the operational stuff, the executive side of it, the delivery. So it wasn't a case of mixing those two it, but it is a case of where is the best place for for instance. I mean, a good example of that would be not long after Richard joined actually, there was a whole thing, the usual thing, as you will know, Phil about assisted dying and the issues in relation to that and and we were invited, as Scope to participate in some kind of I think it was, I think it was an evening thing, because I always refused to be on the sofa for breakfast at six o'clock in the morning. It just wasn't really me that was Richard's job for definite but I think it was some kind of evening session on the TV discussing these kinds of things. And I said to Richard, he would be the best person for it. And he was a bit taken aback by that. But actually what I felt was that as a disabled person with a long term impairment, it, I would be the obvious person to be saying the things that I might be saying about it, whereas a non disabled man would be a completely different thing and might carry more weight in that circumstance. So what we did as we developed the partnership was that we were constantly looking at the, you know, which is it better? Is it better for the organization and for disabled people in society, if it's you that does it, or is it better if it's me that does it and and that's always a negotiation and always a balance, and it will change throughout the relationship. So
Phil Friend 10:43
Richard, how did it feel to be thrown in to that?
Speaker 2 10:48
The thing that she's talking about was a live debate on the ITN News at 10 with the then director of Public Prosecutions, who was Keir Starmer, and say, like, literally two or three months into being the chief executive of Ccope and having never come across the debate about assisted dying, assisted suicide before, Alice said, as part of our partnership, I think it's better if you do this one and I found myself live on ITV and debating Keir Starmer about these issues. But actually, I totally agree with everything that Alice said, and it's and it's a bit more than that saying so in terms of why it works so well. So first of all, Alice is really thoughtful about governance, and so is constantly trying to make sure that she's doing governance well, and thinking about it and challenging and thinking about what the role of a chair is, what the role of a board is. And lots of chairs don't do that. They're not constantly thinking that. Lots of chairs just think, well, I'm the chair. I know what I should do, whereas Alice was always thinking about what's, what's the right way of this, this working, and then I then come into this, this role. And it's clear, Alice makes it clear from the start exactly what she's just said, this is a partnership. Clearly, there are some things that Alice is responsible for there's some things Richard is responsible for, but together, we've got to lead all of this. And there will be some things that at different times might fluctuate between the two of us. So it felt like a very safe and trusting space to be now, both of those two things, I think, could apply to any organisation and any combination of chair and chief executive would be really good practice, but, but the other thing, which I think was hugely important in in our relationship, was I felt that I was learning all the time from Alice about disability issues, about the disability movement, about co-production. And I think Alice would probably say I was I was really curious about all of this. I wanted to know more about it. I wanted to understand more. And so we got into a routine of I would go and spend half a day once a month with Alice at her home. And you know, that's not a normal chair chief exec kind of routine to get into, but it was, and a lot of it, we would end up for four or five hours about co- production, learning about that. What does it really mean? Alice sort of expected what could have been naive questions for me in trying to find out more. And so I think all of those things that sort of Alice's commitment to governance and getting that right the safe space, but also that sort of the way that I that Alice enabled me as a chief executive of this organization that we were trying to drive in, the way that Alice said to learn about all of those things just led to a really, really, really productive partnership.
Alice Maynard 13:55
Don't get us wrong. We did argue quite a bit. Actually, all the arguments took place in my Conservatory, and we and we kept them, and what we did was we would come to a resolution, and we always even where we had some very strong views, because we were both so focused on what was the best thing for the organization and for disabled people in society, it meant that we always came to a resolution that would work for for Scope and for the the kind of the vision that we had for disabled people in society, and that's where we had our disagreements.
Simon Minty 14:42
Um, I have one or two reflections so far. I wonder whether disabled people even myself having Richard go on the News at 10. Would the disabled people's movement be sophisticated enough to go, this is smart. We've got a non disabled person here rather than go why isn't someone with a disability who could talk about this as an issue, so I think that's a real kind of interesting dilemma. I also remember Richard, when you agree to Alice texted watch this tonight it will be hilarious. She didn't, she didn't. I remember when you two were together, and I got excited because I went a bit from apprehension for Alice to getting excited. I remember meeting you, Richard, being invited to your office, and just spending an hour or two chatting. And I thought, This feels quite good. There's something really again, relaxed, open, but keen. Alice, you alluded to it, but I'll come to Richard first. There must have been times where there was a real challenge, or you had to make some difficult decisions between the both of you. Can you talk through one or two of those? Or the one that sticks out,
Speaker 2 15:51
I remember learning very quickly that some of the services that Scope was running at the time were awful. They weren't the appropriate environment for disabled people to be living in. They weren't rights based services. There were, you know, there were some very old fashioned buildings that were that had got far too many people living in them. And it just wasn't, you know, as an organisation that was trying to be visionary and about creating a better society for disabled people, these these services were just totally inappropriate and totally wrong. And I remember once sitting with Alice, and Alice obviously felt exactly the same, and it was hard to talk to me about all of this. I said, You've got to go visit that one. And we sat there. And I remember sitting there, I'd been at Scope probably about six months, and we had a list of the sort of the 10 worst services that we knew we're going to have to do something about, but they were the 10 services that were delivering the most surplus. And the organization, I don't know if you can remember, Alice will remember, but the organization at the time had no reserves because one of one of my predecessors, not my immediate predecessor, had overspent. I'd spent all of the money so so the organization was broke and had no reserves, but because of the way that the UK treated disabled people. Local authorities were spending a lot of money on cheap services that were totally inappropriate and putting too many people in them, and, you know, rather than paying for appropriate services. And so we were in this situation where basically our 10 worst services were the ones that were keeping the organization afloat. And so we had to, the only decision we could make was we've got to be long term about this, because we couldn't just close all of those services, because the organization would have gone bust. And so we had to say, whatever our ambition is on it, we've got to sort the finances out of the organization so that we can then start to afford to do something about this. And so things like that were huge decisions, because what it actually meant was that I'm having to persuade Alice to understand, and of course, she did, why some of these terrible services we were going to need to keep running. And she was going to be the chair of an organization that was running some of these pretty bad services, and
Phil Friend 18:20
Her sister hating her every inch of the way. And actually, there was a dimension to this wasn't there Alice about the fact that, of course, the people in the services and their families and so on, they didn't want them closed either? Because, you know, there was a massive I do remember this. I remember the struggles you had to convince disabled people themselves that it was a good idea to shut these things. Alice, what's your take on that?
Alice Maynard 18:45
I think, if you've been in an institution of some description, which is either a Crip school, if I can put it that way, as you and I went to Phil or a home, you know, a care home, and you've lived there for, you know, 40/50, years. In some instances, we had 80 and 90 year olds, and they have always lived in that kind of environment. It's very difficult to imagine what it might be like, and even it's very difficult to build a life outside that and where people were not generally providing services that were appropriate, not large organisations like us, It was also quite difficult for us to work out exactly how to do it in the best possible way. And there were a couple of instances where, where I I struggled with either the outcome of having improved, apparently, people's lives where in one place, we'd moved people into independent living accommodation, but they were lonely, because actually learning how to build a network when you've actually lived next door, rubbing shoulders to other people. It's it's quite difficult, and I struggled with that one, and also I struggled with the impact of parents, because one of the homes that we ran, we were closing, it was after we'd written the strategy where we decided that we were not going to run services that were not fit for the 21st century, and we had a programme of closures and relocating people. We had a massive programme where we worked with people to try to make sure that whatever the outcome of closure was for them, it was what they actually wanted and what they'd chosen. But I remember visiting that place before it was closed and I met with the well young to me, a mid 40s. Woman in her mid 40s who had all her life been institutionalised, and she said to me, do you live on your own? And I said, Yes, I do. And she said, I wish I could live on my own. And I said, well, you can thinking, well, that would be a good choice at this point, and and I, you know, we had a chat about it, and she was really quite enthusiastic. And then, lo and behold, when the closure was announced and people got to know about it, there was a big demo outside the home, and she was one of the people that said to the media who gathered there because they love that kind of thing, she was one of the people who said, I can't move out because I don't feel safe, which is what she had said to me that her mother had said, and why she couldn't live on her own. So disabled people in those circumstances often reflected their parents views or the views of the staff, not their because they've never been allowed to make their own minds up about anything.
Phil Friend 22:33
I mean, that's, I get all of that. That's extraordinary, and I do remember it. I can remember you and I talking of, sort of, in a sense, offline, about how incredibly difficult this all was. And you, Richard, were sitting there, kind of, in a sense, with the big ax in your hand, weren't you? You the one that were going to from the exec point of view, you were charged with the task of modernizing this organization. And yet, as you said earlier, your own experience of disability and how that worked, you were picking up learning from Alice as you went along. It must have been horrendous for you as well.
Richard Hawkes 23:08
But well, I mean, yeah, I mean, I give you a great example. So whilst we were doing the service closures programme I had, there was one week where outside our office, there was a picket of the parents, the elderly parents, of the the adults that were in the services we were closing, and they were picketing the office and, you know, waiting for me to go in and out so that they could, you know, shout abuse at me and so on. And the next week, there was a picket outside the office of people from the disability movement because we weren't closing all of the services. And that was the life that you know, that was a brilliant position that that you were in. And I think, you know, yes, it was tough, but it was really tough. It was really tough for both Alice and for me, in terms of being the chair of the chief executive, trying to lead something where you know that those decisions are having an impact on people's lives, and so you're trying to get those decisions right, and you're trying to get the process right, and you can totally understand why. You know a 90 year old person with a disabled child who's in their 60s is going to be really worried about a change to that, that to that those licensing, you're trying all the time, but you know that you're doing things that are devastating for people, but at the same time, I think what we both held on to was a genuine belief that the role of an organisation like like Scope is to drive positive change in society, and is to, you know, be changing attitudes, to be creating a better future for, you know, all of those things. And sometimes when you're doing that, and you genuinely believe you're doing the right thing, and you. Consulting and communicating and so on. There are going to be times when you're making decisions that are going to be very difficult for some individuals. But the problem a lot of the time with organisations, and especially in the charities sector, is they end up playing it safe too much, not wanting to do the bolder things that might rock the boat a little bit. And I think the great thing that we've had because we kept supporting each other on this was a recognition that we just had to keep going.
Simon Minty 25:25
And sometimes the sort of the greatest challenge is the greatest achievement. And it may well be that what you both described and and also we said at the top that you returned the organisation to having some reserves so it was in a better financial position. I'm just wondering if there's something else that I'll come to you first, maybe Alice that you were really proud of. It doesn't have to be big, but or something that you're like, I'm really glad during my time at Scope that I noticed this was something we did that changed.
Alice Maynard 25:55
So I think, oh, I don't know, it's very difficult to pick on individual things, but because, I think one of the things that I actually two of the things that I noticed was that and Richard unearthed a lot of this was that there had been no strategic approach to starting doing things. So we discovered at some juncture during the course of actually, when we were both fair old way in really, that we owned animals. We had a petting zoo. I had no idea.
Phil Friend 26:36
I never knew this. This was kept very quiet.
Alice Maynard 26:41
And a beauty parlor somewhere, and somebody suggested one of the one of the staff teams suggested we should buy a barge and run disabled people's holidays on it. And there was a whole kind of a mishmash of, Oh, that would be nice for disabled people wouldn't it kind of approach to life and and so there was that, and then there was the other revelation for me was that we didn't know how much it cost us to provide services to individual disabled people. So individual disabled people in our different services needed different levels of support. Might need additional support, additional medical interventions that we needed to be engaged with, and we didn't actually know how much that cost. So how on earth can you possibly run an organization with good financial management, if you don't know how much it costs you to provide the services so that I'm I'm actually quite proud that Richard and I brought brought together that kind of rigorous approach to management, both both strategic management and financial management, and that it made quite a lot of difference to where scope was at the end of it.
Phil Friend 28:10
Yeah. I mean, I just Richard, how much flack did you get for closing the petting zoo? I mean, was that
Simon Minty 28:20
I was furious.
Phil Friend 28:21
I was so angry about that! it. But I think what's coming from that? Alice and Richard, your thoughts here, in a sense, what you're reminding me, because I do remember some of the history, is that charities weren't run like businesses. Were they? They were kind of staggering along. I mean, Scope, (Spastic Society) was a massively creative organisation. When it was set up, no one was doing what's but gradually over the years, it kind of never kept up. It didn't evolve. It just stayed more then along you come with a 21st century approach, and it scares the life out of everybody. But, I mean, the business focus was that something that you brought to the party, or something you probably went along.
Richard Hawkes 29:06
I mean, I would have had an absolute approach. And, you know, Alice absolutely wanted that approach and that but, you know, I think it's probably that combination of having a business approach that really being keen to understand all of the issues that we've talked about. It was would have been that combination that possibly led Alice to thinking that I was the right person to be the Chief Exec. And so I think because I'd been Chief Exec of a small charity for a number of years, I think when you're chief executive small charity, you can't you can't afford to be wasting money. You can't afford, you just don't have the, almost the luxury of, you know, processes that just go on and on forever, and systems that just, you know, don't seem to be you've got to be efficient and effective. And certainly, you know, I find where I am now the organisation is getting bigger, but it's an absolutely ruthless, sort of business minded approach to running an organization. Efficiently and effectively. And this is what Alice and I recognized it was going to take time, but you've got to have people. You've got to understand the finances people. You've got to have financial reports. You've got to have KPIs. You've got to have, you know, we managed to get to a place where 3500 members of staff, every single one of them had appraisals, all of those things we were putting in place whilst, at the same time driving the cultural, strategic change in the organization overall as well.
Phil Friend 30:27
I mean, that's, I think what we've got there is a really clear picture of the challenge that you faced when you both came together there and Alice took I do remember Alice took huge risks in terms of going along and trying to help sort Scope out. She's artistic. You know, told us about those and you Richard went in there, not knowing all sorts. Now, after all that experience, and we know the outcome that Scope is thriving. It's doing its thing. You guys have moved on. But what do you think the challenges are now, as you look at the situation, I know Richard, you're slightly removed now from that, but I did want to pick up, and I'm trying. I'm trying to avoid doing this too complex a way. I am really interested in the the Asian community and how they look at disability issues and so on. If we can pick that up in a minute, but I know that in your current role, that must be something that comes up and and thinking of the two of you now looking back at the work you did and thinking about the future. What what do you think perhaps Alice, we start with you. What do you think the big challenges are now for organizations like scope and others?
Alice Maynard 31:39
I think there are some big challenges around the changing nature of disability. So what I mean by that is that there has been a rise in interest in neurodiversity, it was barely considered. I mean, I remember we had some some focus groups at one point in scope, and there were some people there who identified as neurodiverse. But it was that was not common. And so we need to shift as a disabled people's movement, if there, if there still is one, we need to move towards understanding that it's a broader picture now than it used to be. And I I'm not sure we've necessarily worked out how to do that, because always, always, when you're doing something a bit different, there needs to be some learning. And I think there is a we have a tendency as human beings, I think, to expect change to be immediate, and also to want to change immediately. And actually, things don't necessarily work that way. I mean, I'm in the middle of writing a sort of a memoir that engages my leadership development experience and looking back, it's fascinating, you know, thinking remembering some of the issues that we had in the past, and understanding how those issues are changing and the way in which we need to change too, I think is one of the most difficult things, and I think that's partly why scope got itself into difficulty in the first place, because it wasn't moving, it wasn't moving, it wasn't moving, and then all of a sudden It wanted to move, and it moved too fast and without that sense of discipline, rigor, understanding business, understanding its place in disability, it was never going to be a disabled people's organization. It was always going to be a disability organization. But that's, I think that's partly why it failed when it did and and so the question for me is, how do we cooperate best? How do we work together best to make the change happen and to be that? I mean, you know, be the change you want to see in the world, cliche, but actually, we need to change ourselves in order to be able to make change. I'm not sure that answers your question.
Phil Friend 34:52
No, it does. It does.
Simon Minty 34:54
I'm going to respond to it, but I wouldn't mind Richard trying to answer your question. Which quite a broad question you've set there,
Phil Friend 35:02
yeah, I suppose, going back to it, Richard, what interests me now in your current role looking at the issues that affect Asian communities and sign the UK disability features there? Of course it does. And you said at the beginning that we didn't kind of learn developmentally across stuff, but Alice picked that up too, that we don't learn from each other. I wonder. Just to add to what Alice was saying, what you think the challenges are in the areas that you're currently working in?
Richard Hawkes 35:27
I think I Alice is very articulated well, then some of the challenges, you know, with neurodiversity, with new ways of thinking about things and looking I when I look at things through the charity sector lens, I'm unfortunately, quite a lot more negative about where things are at because I think the role of the not for profit sector, charity sector, call it what you want. Overall, charity exists because things aren't great, and people want to make things better, if you're trying to change things, you've got to keep changing and adapting and developing as well. And I just don't think the sector has done that and has done that anywhere near as well as it as it could have done. And so I think if you look at a lot of the big charities now, not just disability, but a lot of the big charities in the UK, they're still pretty much doing pretty much the same in pretty much the same way as they would have been doing it 30 years ago. And so there just isn't enough radical transformation of the organisations and of the sector that that there needs to be on your point. Phil about so with the so in my current job now, I do a lot of work with the British Asian communities South Asians, and also across South Asia. And disability is a massive issue, but in both the British Asian community and across South Asia, there's still huge stigma about disability, and so it's still very much, and I know there's great work on that I've looked at the stages that different countries are at with regards to disability and attitudes at different stages, you know. And I think there's still, there's still lots of parts of South Asia where there aren't even the current words that aren't abusive the difference impairment and things like that. There's I'm constantly disagreeing with people who want to use the term differently abled all the time. And when I talk about disabled people, I'm told by people that I shouldn't be so negative about about differently abled people. And you then try and you know, I mean, all three of you know exactly what I'm saying, what you know, but anybody I talked about that just doesn't get it. And so there is a long ways ago in both the, you know, the community there and across that region,
Simon Minty 38:10
you have that tricky bit, Richard, that whenever they look, I think it's only the UK uses disabled people, all the other countries, people with disabilities, and then occasionally all the other ones, all the other variations. So you're dealing with internationally and and, but you understand it.
Richard Hawkes 38:25
Yeah and again, this was hours of sitting with Alice and learning about the social model and learning about why it is different to talk about disabled people and why people have impairments and it's society that disables you, as opposed to talking about people with disabilities or differently abled. And you know, when you learn all of that and it's so deeply ingrained in you, you then you then apply that, and again, you apply to the other ways that you work. So so for me, all of those issues about language and understanding the power of language, and what that is actually saying applies across all of my international development work that just that, that sort of thing.
Simon Minty 39:06
Jumping back, Alice, I have a video which I occasionally use in my training, and it was made by Scope, and it was about the social model. And it's all of the gang a long time ago. Everyone's looking a little bit younger, a little bit slimmer. And you come on at the end Alice and say, it's very easy to explain this. If you're a wheelchair user or have a physical condition. It gets a bit more complicated when you start talking then mental health and diversity. So you were already saying you're flagging that there's sort of limits or barriers, and I think you're right. The bit that you've mentioned, it is more challenging because people aren't using the word disability like they used to. And if I'm doing my art scene, I say deaf, disabled, neurodiverse people, because I want to bring them in. I do feel the social model is still used, but we just phrase it differently. It's like access needs removing barriers. It's all the same stuff, but it's. Just a different, modern phrasing of the same essence about removing it. But you, both of you, have alluded to this, and I'm trying to see if I can someone listening. You're both amazing leaders. You've both done amazing work. Do you have a a leadership philosophy? And I'm thinking of some of the things you've talked about, people, perception, obviously, finances, making bold change. I mean, I'm going to maybe come to you Richard this time, and Alice gets a bit longer to think. But do you have a leadership philosophy? Or,
Richard Hawkes 40:29
I think, in the sectors that I've worked in, I learned, I learned a long time ago about power and decision making, and I'll go back 30 years to when I started at Sense International. So it was a deafblind charity international, and the board of Sense UK had decided that the first place that Sense International work should work would be India. And so I was tasked with going away and coming back with a strategy for India after about three months, and I went away, did a lot of research, talked to a lot of people, and I went back and presented the strategy, and the strategy basically said, The only decision we should make about India from the UK is that we shouldn't make any decisions about India from the UK. And for me, that that sort of principle has been at the heart of everything that I've ever done since, um, the people who are going to be most affected by decisions need to be the people that are at the heart of those decisions. And so leadership in the in the not for profit sector, in the charity sector, absolutely should be about that as the top principle. You know, and that that means that you've got to always find ways of you know, I'm on the board of UNICEF at the moment, and UNICEF is great at involving children and young people and ensuring that the voice of children and young people are informing the organisation Scope of pain, great or much better at doing the same with disabled people in international development. The International Development is littered over 50 years with examples of, you know, people, great white saviours, who think they can go along and tell people in villages in Africa and Asia what's best for their own lives, and get it wrong every time and cause damage. And so the absolute principle, to me, the absolute guiding principle, is that anybody who's going to be impacted or affected by anything that you do has got to be involved in making the decision, informing that decision. And if you stick to that, and you get your organizations thinking and working in that kind of way, you're going to get things right more of the time that not.
Simon Minty 42:47
Thank you. Richard Alice,
Alice Maynard 42:49
so I think I would be saying that my key principle is model, model, model, so model the behaviours and the culture that you want to see in the in an organisation, you can't introduce change requirements, etc, without actually modeling how that should be and, and that involves, for me, inclusion, respect for people and their opinions and and a level of transparency and and that kind of sense of curiosity, not only about the world around you, but about your own self. So I don't, I think unless we understand ourselves as leaders, we can never be good leaders. We have to know one of the things I that always majorly impressed me about Richard, one of the many, is that he really thought about what impact he was going to have on people that he met and and kind of knew when he went into a room what impact he wanted to have, and had worked out how to create. I mean, that's just for me. I just waddle along to everything, frankly, and then go, Oh, that's interesting. They responded interestingly. So I sense that curiosity about ourselves and that understanding of what are we, what is our impact on the world around us that I think is really important.
Phil Friend 44:41
Yeah, I've never seen you waddle anywhere, by the way. I think, I think what hits me about both of you, Richard's point about never do anything without the people that you're working with and for being part of all of that. And you, Alice, talking about model, model, model, modeling. You. It's unto thine own self be true. It's it's sticking to, I mean, what strikes me about both of you when you work together was, in some ways, it was you against the world, and you had to be strong, and you had to be determined, and you had to keep saying and acting in ways that those around you could see genuine, that you were genuine, that this wasn't some kind of yet another lot coming in to modernize. So there's it's pretty unusual to meet people, isn't it, in my experience, at least, where that synergy and that affection for each other, respect for each other, those things when they come along, they're not very they're pretty rare, aren't they? You two, I think I feel you both had that when you were at scope.
Richard Hawkes 45:46
You know what? You're absolutely right? And this last hour has made me really miss all of that as well. It's, it's great, sort of reminiscing about that. It was a great time, but it's like, you know, it's not, it's not often you get the that chance to be in that sort of privileged position, to have that kind of partnership, to try and lead something through huge change, and all of those different dynamics that we talked about, you know, the challenges with families, the challenges with the movement, the politics, the languages, all you know, it was, It was so rewarding the whole of that time, you know, just, you know, having this conversation with the three of you, it just makes me realize how much I really miss all of that. Oh
Alice Maynard 46:30
yeah, yeah, it was a massive privilege. And I, you know, yes, you don't get it very often. And I think we both, we both recognise, what a privilege it was, because, because it it's not something, certainly not something that every, every disabled person can expect to be able to achieve in their lifetimes because of the level of discrimination against disabled people. We just don't reach the kinds of places where those kinds of partnerships are possible. And for me, I, I was immensely privileged and honoured to chair Scope. And yeah, it was a challenge. And yes, there was some real major risks and and some of it was pretty hairy, but actually, because of the relationship that Richard and I had, we were able to weather those challenges and actually make, I hope, make some difference in the world.
Simon Minty 47:41
We could perfectly happily finish it, but I am conscious there was, I just wanted maybe a minute from you both about future, what you're interested in now, or what you're looking forward to next, and does anybody want to kick off?
Alice Maynard 47:54
Yeah, I can kick off. Um, so the kind of things that I'm doing now, or at least trying to do, is non executive work, which I love. I mean, I found out at Scope that I love non executive work. It's and I had to be rather good at it. So I just thought, why shouldn't I be paid for it? And so I do more paid non executive work. But I think that's, you know, some disabled people might think I've cashed in, you know, I've checked out, because I'm not working in the disability field much at the moment. I do some consulting there, but no, no non exec work in the disability field. But my thing is, I think, as a disabled, as a group of disabled people, we need to move on. We need to demonstrate that we are more than just disability issues. And so my take is, I'm I'm not sure I would describe myself as a trailblazer, because I'd love to think I was trailblazing by being a disabled person at very senior levels, on boards. I hope I'm not just an exception, and I don't think that we will know for some considerable length of time, and I'll be dead by then. So you know, it's, it's that kind of sense of I need to do this because the world needs to understand that we have skills that are not just disability related.
Simon Minty 49:23
I just to jump in. I remember talking about disability on TV, and they used to be the sort of five you'd struggle to get to 10, counting them on your fingers, I can think of about five people doing what you're doing, Alice, but you're right. I'm not at 10 yet, so we've still got a way to go.
Richard Hawkes 49:42
I'm still I'm still naive enough to think that I'm young enough to have the energy, the enthusiasm to the innovative, enough and creative to keep leading organisations. You know, where I am the moment the British Asian Trust is incredibly exciting. We're doing some and. Amazing things, lots of innovation, really achieving change at scale. And the challenge of doing that across the continent as large as South Asia, is absolutely enormous. And so sticking to all of those principles about trying to drive systemic change, really trying to bring about sustainable change that's for the better by listening and learning and being curious all of the time. And so for me, hopefully, for many years, very fortunate positions to keep doing things.
Phil Friend 50:30
I think what strikes me about those, those final remarks, is is Alice that what's perhaps beginning to happen now is that those of us who cut our teeth, in a sense, in the disability world, begin to grow and develop and then move out of it, but we but we know how that feels. We know what that was all about. So when we come to meet other situations, as you currently are in your non exec roles all that work you intuitively got is kind of playing different kinds of music, but it's and for Richard, it's almost the other way around, isn't it? You're kind of taking away what you learned and then applying it to this new role.
Richard Hawkes 51:15
Like I said, the complexity of all of the issues we talked about here. You know, if you can understand and work with all of those different challenges, it's such a great learning for any other sector and for taking that beyond. I think that's a really, really good point about how do we then make sure we're doing that, taking that learning from from the disability world to improve the wider world?
Phil Friend 51:41
Well, what can we say? But we have run out. So I was going to say at one point in this conversation, we should let it run for two hours and divide the show into two. But there's so much we could talk about. Actually, there is so much we could talk about. And that bit about where do we go now, either as individual players, but also, how can disability organisations teach other organizations, you know, because what you did in Scope is pretty amazing, and that's surely applicable to other organizations. They could pick up on that and try and make it their own. But it's been a real job. Love talking to both of you. It's been great to see you again. Richard, I haven't seen you long time, and I know we've got to see Alice soon for lunch, because she does a very nice lunch, which is why we always go there. Anyway, it's been brilliant talking to both of you and very grateful for the time you've given us. Because you know, for all we've said, you are very busy, both of you. So it's great to see you both. Thank you so much.
Richard Hawkes 52:37
Great see you. Thank you very much.
Alice Maynard 52:38
Thank you. Okay, you
Announcer 52:43
The Way We Roll by Simon Minty and Phil Friend. You can email us at mintyandfriend@gmail.com or just search for minty and friend on social media we're on Facebook, Twitter and LinkedIn.
Transcribed by https://otter.ai