We don't want Purple Washing

Since its launch in 2019, the Valuable 500 has signed up more than five hundred senior executives from worldwide companies and organisations to put disability on the board agenda. So far, so pretty good. But as the Valuable 500 matures, it is now asking more of its members and wants them to report back on progress. It is holding a meeting in Tokyo in December 2025.

At the centre of this is our guest, Stephan Leblois, Chief Community and Programmes Officer for Valuable 500. Stephane leads programme development and community building, playing a pivotal role in rallying for progress and fostering accountability among the members.

We asked Stephane how he got involved in disability inclusion and about his relationship with disability. He tells us about fantastic examples of inclusive practice, from a multinational pharmaceutical company to a prestigious hotel in Scotland. These trailblazers share their knowledge and become known as the ‘Iconics’.

But what do you do about the companies that sign up but don’t make any meaningful change – is that purple washing? How do you harmonise more than 500 organisations' disability inclusion efforts when they are in different places geographically and in terms of resources? Luckily, Stephane has the answers.

Links

https://www.thevaluable500.com

https://www.thevaluable500.com/about

https://disabilitypower100.com/project/stephane-leblois/

https://www.linkedin.com/in/stephaneleblois/

Transcript

 Announcer  0:10  
This is The Way We Roll presented by Simon Minty and Phil Friend. You can email us at mintyandfriend@gmail.com or just search for mintyandfriend on social media. We're on Facebook, Twitter and LinkedIn.

Simon Minty  0:31  
Hello and welcome to The Way We Roll with me, Simon Minty

Phil Friend  0:34  
and me, Phil Friend

Simon Minty  0:37  
this month, our guest is Stephane Leblois from the Valuable 500 if you've not come across it, the Valuable 500 aim is getting the topic of disability in the boardroom. Since its creation by former guest Caroline Casey, it has over 500 partners and companies working in harmony to end disability exclusion 

Phil Friend  0:59  
As Chief Community and Programmes officer for Valuable 500 Stephane leads on programme development and community building playing a pivotal role in rallying for progress and fostering accountability among the Valuable 500 member companies.

Simon Minty 1:15  
We will explore his role within disability inclusion the current projects, and learn a little bit more about him as a person. So we're going to start at the beginning, I guess, Stephane, and how did you end up? Well, Valuable 500 but more specifically, your connection into sort of the field of disability and inclusion.

Stephane Leblois 
Well, first of all, let me begin by thanking you for having me here and to be speaking to the likes of Phil Friend and Simon Minty, both of whom you know have left these have their own legacies in this space and have left these massive footprints for folks like me to fill. It's it's something that is a true pleasure and an honor to be on this podcast. How did I get into this space, and then eventually to the Valuable 500 I've been working the disability space since 2011 and I'd always my this is somewhat of a family business, insofar as my my father started an organization called G3 ICT, which is a almost acts as a bridge between the private sector, the tech sector, specifically, and the disability community to create bridges of understanding and most importantly, to advance the digital accessibility agenda, both in terms of policy and innovation, and so he started that way back in the years prior to the development of the UN CRPD. And I had kind of followed his work at that time, and eventually, kind of just fell into this space. I've worked in a variety of different roles and in a variety of different fields, ranging from creating accessible and inclusive higher education opportunities in developing countries to working in more of a disability rights advocacy capacity, both at the arc of the United States as well as the Disability Rights Fund, and then finally, working to support Fortune 500 companies in their goals and objectives to advance disability, inclusion and accessibility across their business. And that's kind of where I've landed, and that's how I got involved with the Valuable 500 and it's been a really interesting, rewarding, sometimes challenging, but mostly very exciting journey to be on over the past three and a half years.

Phil Friend  3:42  
So if I just drill down a little bit further, Stephane, I mean, you developed in an interest in sort of rights, yeah. But what was it about disability rights, for example, was, was there some kind of trigger there, or is a personal interest?

Stephane Leblois  4:00  
Phil, that's a really good question for me. What I ultimately wanted to do when coming up as and getting into my career is I want to get into a human rights sector, human rights kind of area that I knew there was room to grow, that I knew was still kind of evolving, and that I knew that ultimately would excite and challenge me. I knew that in the disability rights space there was still, it was still relatively nascent when I got into it, because the the UNCRPD had been passed, you know, a couple, a couple of years prior, the ADA was passed to the not too distant past, from the past, from that and relative to all the other civil rights movements that were happening in the US and indeed abroad, this was, you know, far and away, the newest and the most interesting and exciting. In many ways, it's only really later in life that actually stepped into my own disability identity, and actually prior to this  call, Phil, we're talking about kind of your background and and your disability, somebody who was a mentor to me for a long time before she passed away quite recently, Judy Huemman, who I'm sure you know, where I've met previously, is the one who actually told me to step into my identity. For the longest time, I had kind of struggled with mental health challenges that, especially in adulthood, that began to manifest as, you know, more more pressures, the job, the career, the family, all these things started to mount. So too did kind of these challenges start to present in in ways that I didn't expect when I was younger. And so, you know, what started initially as like a passion, you know, to do good in this world, ended up becoming much more about my identity, stepping into it and really kind of identifying with the work. I also really recently got assessed for neurodivergence. As it turns out, I have ADHD, so I've started to kind of step into that as well. So suffice it to say, this is in many aspects of my life, in my family life, in my personal life as an individual, and in my professional life, disability permeates throughout. 

Phil Friend  6:17  
That's brilliant. Thank you. That answers the question brilliantly. And of course, Judy Huemman we had on this show, very sad that she's not with us anymore, but she clearly had an amazing impact on disability rights across the world, but but also at individual levels. And you've just explained that you know that she touched your life, and here we are. So yeah, that's great. Thanks very much, Stephane. 

Simon Minty  6:41  
One day another time, I would love to do a survey the amount of people I've met who have got involved in the field of disability inclusion and at that point, thought, No, I don't have a disability, but this is something I care about. And then over time, go, Oh, hello, I actually may be here. And then there's almost, you know, we talk about people who have conditions but mask them and hide them in the sort of non disabled environment. I think I know two or three people who go, Well, yeah, but it's not enough. Or, you know, it doesn't count, like, or Phil so obvious because he's got a wheelchair. And there's a sort of another double whammy that goes on, which is a curious one. But anyway, we I looked at the Valuable  500's website, and it's very impressive. I've come across it with the TV access project as well. They're saying by this date, we will have removed all barriers. And I love all this stuff. But on the Valuable 500s, it says, obviously you've got some amazing people working there that I really like. But then there's phrases like end disability exclusion. disability is our business. How? How is that going? Big picture? What's the sort of interesting stuff at Valuable 500 right now?

Stephane Leblois  7:53  
It's interesting because we, when we started out on this journey, even prior to my tenure, I started there in 2021 Caroline's vision was, well, you know, we know that there is excellent work being done around the world to equip practitioners and to get disability work going within organisations, but typically that, you know that work would often start and stop at, you know, certain levels of The organization and not move past that. There weren't a ton of in fact, there were the majority of CEOs, as we found, and the reason why we started our campaign is CEOs didn't even know what was going on there organizations as it related to disability, inclusion and accessibility. They didn't want to talk about it, because a lot of folks were either afraid or weren't confident enough in understanding what it what what's happening, what it took to be excellent, what it took to be great. So Caroline brought it to the brought it to the world, and said, Look, you know, we, as leaders, especially leaders in business, need to be able to say the word disability. Need to be able to bring this to our colleagues in the C suite. Need to be able to strategise and to plan and to scale and sustain these activities, and that doesn't happen without the involvement and the leadership from the folks at the top. Now, as as time moved on, we got our 500th company on May 18, 2021 you know, we then moved into phase two, which is like, Okay, we have 500 of these commitments. How do we move the ball forward as one? Because every single commitment is unique. Every organisation arrives in this space, arrives into the spectrum of disability confidence at a different, you know, level on that spectrum. So it's very challenging to create a single agenda that everybody would want to, everybody would want to participate in, because, simply put, like everybody is just at a different place. And we have to respect that, and we're not going to, you know, levy expectations on our companies that are that are set barriers to entry into us, you know, into our agenda that are simply just too challenging, because we want at the end of the day, we want companies to to feel like they can accomplish the things that we that we've put out, because that's, that's the momentum we're looking for at the end of the day. A lot of this game, as you guys know, as as practitioners in the space you know that equally important to achieving, you know, perfection and or trying to strive for that which you know, and trying to strive for high performance. Equally important to that is, you know, the momentum you get from putting points on the board, doing the small things first, following our 500th commitment, we, you know, took the time to really assess what the market looked like. And after a year and a half of kind of, you know, going through this, going through this iterative process of figuring out what our agenda was going to be, we finally arrived at this synchronized collective action idea, this idea that it may be that we won't be able to, that we're we can't necessarily meet every individual company at where they're at, Because instead, we want to engage with them on a via synchronized collective action. And what that means is identifying key barriers that prevent systems change in certain areas of business and disability, and pushing and using the collective influence and collective power of our companies to push against and eventually break those barriers and the three synchronized collective actions we came to were in inclusive leadership, again, our bread and butter understanding why it is that, you know, business leaders still have trouble with keeping disability on top of the leadership agenda and really strategizing around it as a core business function, as opposed to it being an add on or something That's a nice to have that's one bit engaging and involving leaders, but it's also making sure that companies are investing in their in their staff, cultivating the talent as you, as you and as both of you all have done so beautifully in the past and still now cultivating talent to create those future leaders of tomorrow, those leaders with disabilities within companies, who can graduate through the ranks. That's one, that's one area we're looking at. We're also looking at representation of media, of disability and media and marketing, knowing that like you know, people with disabilities, despite recent progress that we've seen in popular media, in movies like you know, coda, is a shining example of that. There are so many, there are many other, you know, films that have have done this very well. The Paralympics is another big moment where, you know, disability representation has been front and center, and many brands, kind of, you know, hopped on that momentum to create, you know, inclusive ads. But our big question is, after big moments in time, like the Paralympics. How do we sustain that? How does that continue over time? So it's not just a flash in the pan, so it's not just okay. Well, we'll see you in LA 28 what happens between 24 and 28 and that's, that's the question we want to ask. 

Simon Minty  12:55  
I can certainly see the first two. They make sense. It sounds quite an interesting curveball, though. I mean, don't get me wrong, I'm a massive fan of representation, but that that seems unusual, unless, because your Valuable 500 members are not all broadcasters or media or anything like that. I'm just kind of curious how that will overlap for Unilever, or, I don't know some other IBM, or whoever it might be, 

Stephane Leblois  13:19  
It's in the way that we define representation. So we look at representation not just as the number or the proportion of persons with disabilities on screen relative to non disabled or non apparently disabled peers, but we're also looking at, you know, one production processes, so understanding where folks with disabilities are present and are involved and engaged throughout the production processes of media, but we're also looking at the accessibility of media, and we get into digital accessibility and things like that, and we have a very wide, we have a big definition of what representation is, because without including accessibility, for example, representation on screen, and how people look like, and the narratives that are told are almost irrelevant if people with disabilities can't access that content, right? So the accessibility and representation for us go hand in hand. And to your point, Simon, when you when you talk about like, well, not every, not every one of our companies is like a Channel 4, like a BBC, or whatever, that's right, but at the same time, the Unilevers even the Ernst and Youngs of the world still need to pay attention to how they how they communicate to their audiences, whether it's job seekers, supplier to client communications, right? You need to make sure that you know you don't know who your client is. It could be that your client actually has a visual impairment. How do you make sure that your, you know, your consulting decks are made accessible, so that they, you know, they can actually access them and and participate in the conversations you're having. But it also makes more sense, as you say, if it was, if the world was switched to media, to comms or something like that, then I totally get it. So I take your point. It's a lot broader than just representation on screen or stage or.

Phil Friend  15:00  
I was just going to bring us back, really, because you said there were three areas. You've dealt with 2 of them. We interrupted you with the second one.

Stephane Leblois  15:06  
I was also being long winded, fellas, so

Simon Minty
I thought you'd done three.

Phil Friend  15:12  
You were being detailed Stephane

Stephane Leblois  15:13  
The third area, and arguably the most important area, is around reporting accountability. The reality is that, you know, right now, the majority of ESG reporting done around the world does not include disability data. And if it does, it's quite reductive and really just relies on the you know, workforce representation statistic. How many people with disabilities do you have in your company? Which is an important statistic, but you know, it's like going to a doctor, and the doctor telling you what your you know, what your heart rate is as your overall health measure, it doesn't tell you anything about all the other potential health indicators you can have that could point to, you know, other complications or other serious issues that you might have. So in this same way, we are trying to kind of alter the alter the system, alter the way that, you know, companies are thinking about reporting to include other statistics, other important measures that point to the overall, let's say disability, inclusion, health of a company, looking at digital accessibility, the way people are trained inside companies, the way people the way organizations actually strategize and create governance around making sure that, you know, disability inclusion work is sustained and scaled across, you know, a multinational and you know, lastly, we're also including our the wonderful teachings from our from our friends at Purple Space, who you know ERGs, in many ways, are, are the engine room of disability inclusion work in companies, and so how do we make sure that those ERGs are as impactful as they can be, by working with Purple Space, but also making sure that we are that we're teaching our companies on how to report against that to say, hey, look, we actually do have an impactful ERG. And the reason why all this matters fellas, aside from just, you know, keeping companies to account, is increasingly investor groups are looking at ESG reporting data and saying, Well, you know, based on the fact that we know that consumers are more and more informed and will make decisions based on how how companies are performing against their ESG responsibilities, we in turn, will also make, you know, investment decisions based on those things. And increasingly, you're starting to see a lot of investor groups looking at human rights dimensions within the ESG data that they're considering, and if disability doesn't show up in that data, then nobody knows about how companies are performing in this space. So they may be investing in companies that are actually doing quite poorly in disability. And so there's a need to educate investor groups. There's a need to bring this to light, to say this is an equally important measure within the, you know, human rights kind of metrics. You need to pay attention to this. This is literally 1/5 to 1/4 of the market worldwide. You know, we're not, we're not going to go away. And we need, and frankly, we need the numbers to be able to ensure that companies, investor groups and consumers value a company's performance on disability.

Phil Friend  18:27  
I think what strikes me Stephane when we met Caroline, and we did the initial conversations we had with her, we had this dynamo in front of us who was doing all sorts of crazy stuff, and you've put some real flesh on the bones now, this is how it's moved from when we talked to her to where we are now. But one big dynamic that we haven't touched on is that you do this across the world. So cultures play tunes here, you know, India is doing something that the US isn't doing, maybe, whatever. So I'm really interested in how you account for the different cultural assets and barriers that will exist in some parts of the world where you're trying to operate. Because it seems to me, one of the big challenges Simon and I always remember was, how do you get the organisation that's worldwide to make sure that everything it's doing is the same wherever you go, and McDonald's is probably, when you think about their food quality, it's the same wherever you go. But so you get my point. It's, How do you factor in the differences between culture and belief and all those things that go on in different countries?

Stephane Leblois  19:34  
And in addition to culture, there's also legislative barriers, right? Like, I mean, if you think about, if you think about all the efforts that are being led in countries like, you know, France and Germany, for example, as it relates to self ID, most multinationals can't get that stat because it's, it's, that's protected information. There's, there's, simply, it is illegal to gather that information in those jurisdictions and many others around the world. So you have, you. You had these legislative barriers that are preventative, that that that that trip up companies, as well as as the cultural barriers. But there are really two answers for this. And again, I I don't mean to beat the drum on this, but it really begins and ends with how leaders prioritize and communicate that prioritization. If global CEOs are willing to step up and bang the drum that this is an important thing for their business, it doesn't matter where that office is, they they will pick up the phone. They will answer. They have to right? Because that's that. That's the mandate that is set by the highest, the kind of highest authority within the company. So I think leaders have a huge role to play. I also think that internal comms need a huge kind of boost in this space where, you know, the number of times that we'll speak to different, you know, there are a number of multinationals that we have quite close ties to where we'll be speaking to two or three different points of contact that represent two or three different geographical areas in in within their global footprint, and they're all talking about slightly different priorities and different ways of doing things that, to me, is is endemic of not just, you know, a lack of a cohesive vision that might be communicated from on high, but it's also just a missed ships in the night, if you will, some some miscommunications that I think could otherwise be bridged if there was in addition to a Global Disability Strategy, if there is one, there needs to be a corresponding, you know, global, internal kind of calm strategy to make sure it's communicated and kind of thought about in the same way. And I feel like an organization like GSK does this beautifully, for example, with their Global Disability Council, right? I'm sure you all are aware of it. I'm not sure if people have talked about it on this show, but when you have a company that took 10 years to develop a model where it's, you know, it's a governance model where the heads of all the major kind of business units around the world are on this council, and they're also two seats for the co chairs of their global ERG on the council. And they meet regularly to talk about how disability, how their disability, inclusion strategy, is being implemented around the world, and each business function that, to me, is the sign of a company that is not only taking disability inclusion seriously, but strategizing and making sure that it's being implemented evenly across across the globe, so you don't get those gaps right. And even even then there are some gaps right, even then there's some business units that might be moving slower than others, right? And I don't know the specifics of GSK necessarily, but it's important to at least maintain a constant line of communication, a constant line of like, similar prioritization around the world, or else it just kind of dissipates. 

Simon Minty  22:53  
You were very lovely to answer the top of the show in terms of our, you know, experience and things we've done before. The flip side of that is the joy of the next generation who expect more and you know what, Phil and I, by the way, we're not the same age, but yeah, what we might have said might be acceptable or good enough that I think expectations have gone beyond that, and they're growing. I think the Valuable 500 has got this really tricky bit though. Your membership. It's voluntary people join, so you want to encourage them to do their synchronization. But at the same time, is, along with me, building up to, I know in the UK, they're looking at changing the law so there'll be something like Pay Gap reporting for disabled people. Presumably, that wouldn't be something you ask, because that would be legislative to a unique country, or is there a hope that some at some point you say it would be great if the membership could, you know, do pay gap reporting. So I suppose I'm balancing what the expectations of the next generation you guys want, which is brilliant, but how much you can push before organizations might push back? 

Stephane Leblois  24:00  
Well you know, I think our model has been since we developed our three synchronized collective action kind of theory of change. Our philosophy has always been that this is a starting point and that, again, we want our companies to put points on the board report against our five harmonized KPIs, knowing full well that those KPIs are a starter for 10, and that we can build on that list over time, which may include data points on pay gap, which may include data points on employee satisfaction, which may include data points on, you know, reasonable adjustments, specifically how efficient they are, right, or how efficient those processes are, and so on and so forth. So I think it's all to say that we have very much built the foundation for an eventual house to be built on top. And I think our next, the next agenda that we'll set will be at our accountability summit in Tokyo in 2025 which is where, which is what we are. Are working towards at the moment, and at that point, Phil and Simon, that's when we're really going to set the next agenda. That's when, you know, we'll be able to kind of recalibrate and tack. Do

Simon Minty  25:13  
Do you know how many people are coming? Is that too soon?

Stephane Leblois  25:17  
It's, I mean, it's, we're still, you know, 15 months out. And so we have, we're inviting all 500 plus of our companies. We're inviting several leaders from the disability rights movement. And so we have set up a space that will be able to accommodate, you know, at least one or two representatives from from from those companies, knowing full well that, you know, not every company will be able to travel at that time, also knowing full well that, you know, we're we're hoping that we're envisioning maybe setting up certain hub kind of listening parties type deal so that you know folks may not be if you can't travel to Tokyo, that doesn't necessarily mean that you're going to lose out on the full kind of feeling of the event. But yeah, so with the invite list is being built, that's not finalized, 

Simon Minty  26:17  
I think it's fantastic, by the way. I think it's so exciting. I think Coldplay should do the closing ceremony. Make it a bid.

Phil Friend  26:24  
Oasis. Oasis,

Stephane Leblois  26:26  
yeah. I mean, Oasis is the new hot ticket. 

Simon Minty  26:33  
Yeah a lot of tickets if you got Oasis? Yeah, you're right.

Phil Friend  26:36  
I just wondered being devil's advocate, what do you do to companies that don't pull their weight, that don't deliver I think your GSK story is fabulous. It's a brilliant story. And clearly you've got leaders in organisations. I remember when we worked for the Business Disability Forum, you had some people that were way ahead, you know, doing all sorts of extraordinary stuff. And then you had right at the back the sort of people who were just paddling and trying to keep their head above water. What do you do about those organisations that aren't delivering historically,

Stephane Leblois  27:09  
This has been true, and not a lot of people know this, but business partnership has been kind of a living, breathing organism. We've added folks since that May 21 date, so that you know they're, they're more than 500 companies in our collective now. But we've also asked organisations to step aside. Those organisations that you know signed on initially and that we never heard from again. For example, those are folks that we you know said, you know, thank you. But that's not the spirit of this, of this work, right? This is not, that's not this kind of exercise. And there have been a couple of other organisations that we've, you know, we've asked a step aside for other reasons, but, you know, at the end of the day, folks like it's not, I think a lot of and rightly so, it's we get, we are. We've gotten a lot of scrutiny, because people look at our commitments and, you know, may consider them to be, you know, purple washing or some kind of, and there's, there's not, there's no avoiding that kind of or that level of thinking, because, you know, there is, I always say that, like disability community has been, you know, largely has every reason to not trust business and to feel mistrustful about most things, to be honest with you, that's millennia of being persecuted, being discriminated against, being marginalized. So I understand that level of thinking, but I think people also need to realize that, you know, businesses are also living and breathing organisms. There are changes in leadership. There are there are changes over time that may prioritize, or may, you know, that that may move away from certain things. And so it's really, it's all to say that the companies that have committed to join the Valuable 500 the vast majority of them are still very much engaged with us and still want to do the good work. And then there have been some in the past that we've asked to leave who just you know, for one reason or another, just you know, kind of fell off the map. And it doesn't mean that they're necessarily bad that's just what happens

Phil Friend  27:57  
It answers the question, I think one of the one of the issues that I've always felt was missing from, you know, way back when I was dealing with this on a daily basis, is who's accountable? How do you do you get I think what you've answered that very well, and clearly there is a way that some people can be asked to move on if they're not delivering and that means, I suspect, too, that there's something very exciting about belonging to it being part of the journey of being swept along by and also the you when you hear about what GSK are doing, and you're another organization, thinking, how can we do this? You've got this kind of peer to peer stuff, it's tremendous. I wasn't trying to knock it. I just thought. There will be some issues in there, and you've answered that. So thank you.

Simon Minty  29:16  
On that, that sort of positive note, any other examples, not just the GSK, one other examples of organised or members that you love, what they're doing, something unique or special, or anything that you that in your time at the Valuable 500 you thought this was my, one of my favorite things that we've done. I could see real progress. 

Stephane Leblois  30:24  
Yeah I mean, we're fortunate to have within our network of companies. We have our ICONICS, the organisations that came to us voluntarily with a contribution that would go towards, you know, the the building of products or services to help the rest of the collective or, you know, to generally support our work. And they are, you know, not just in their contribution stepping forward in that way, but writ large, are leading the way for other organisations to follow. You take folks like Deloitte or EY who are doing fabulous work in this space, Google, Apple, Microsoft. These are organisations that have a ton of resources that are open source. Microsoft has their accessibility evolution model, you know, UI has their Centers for Excellence in neurodiversity. These are, these are models that can be replicated and kind of scaled and certainly adapted to a company's reality, right? So that's, that's, I would say that they're really sterling examples of companies that are doing things like that. But then there are, you know, smaller companies that that are lesser or less known, companies like a Gleneagle hotel group in Ireland, a hotel group that's one of our smaller companies, to be honest with you, but on their website, and big shout out to Patrick their CEO, who's a fabulous person and a absolutely staunch disability advocate. On their website, there is an accessibility statement, which, which lists basically every single thing that they do to make their hotel experience accessible for their disabled consumers. It has every, you know, every single action that they're taking to make sure that, as a company, they're operating in a more sustainable, sustainably inclusive way. That's That, to me, is a wonderful example of an organisation who, again, is small, is less resourced than the Googles and the Microsofts, and yet is doing some of the most important work out there, and is leading the way in that example right. Sanofi is another one that recently launched their global accessibility strategy, and that, in many ways, provides a blueprint for other organisations who haven't gotten to that level yet to understand how to do, how to create, like, a five to 10 year plan for digital accessibility, that that really works that and that can be scaled, and that can be sustained right with the right kind of strategic backing and budget. So again, you have, you have these really kind of high level examples set by Microsoft and things. Every once a while you see an example of a smaller organisation that is doing really, really wonderful and innovative things.

Phil Friend  33:16  
You remind but it's interesting. Glenn Eagle, firstly, I'm going to make a note of that, because I'm always looking for a nice hotel that's fully accessible me. They're going to get whatever they charge from me fairly soon. But I remember, I'm sure Simon does Intercontinental group back in the sort of 90s, 2000s made a commitment to provide ceiling hoists in all of their hotels. And it just was transformational. Just one thing, they weren't doing this kind of big, comprehensive stuff, but Intercontinental, bit like B&Q, you know, they all fed off that branding for a long time, because it was so innovative. No one else was doing that kind of stuff. And you've described examples of where in the 21st century. Now these kinds of this is very encouraging, very encouraging, and it's translating into action. That's the important point, isn't it? 

Simon Minty  34:07  
It's saying it's Continental. It wasn't just hoist. They said we're gonna have standards across every hotel in any country, which suddenly you go, Wow, I like your example, Stephane, and they're amazing. 

Phil Friend  34:20  
The word across the disability world was, if you're traveling to anywhere in the world, look for an Intercontinental Hotel, because they have hoists. That was the kind of thing and I remember the people engaged in that they were always booked. That was bloody nuisance. You couldn't get in.

Stephane Leblois  34:36  
 And I have to, I have to ask both of y'all, because it, you know, this is something that we've done a little bit at work in accessible tourism. We published a guide on the 10 most successful cities. We did quite a lot of research in that in that area. But obviously, you know, accessible tourism, and the conversation and the practice has really kind of blown up the past, like two, three years, and so as folks who. Travel as consumers. How have you experienced that? Do you feel like people really getting it, brands are really getting it, or is it, is there still a way to go in certain respects? What is your what are your thoughts on that?

Phil Friend  35:13  
Well, Simon does a lot more traveling than I do, but Simon

Simon Minty  35:18  
You broke up slightly. But are you saying, how is it going in terms of accessible travel? 

Stephane Leblois  35:24  
Yeah, just generally like, do you, I mean, there's been so much conversation and practice, and you start to you're starting to see more and more companies, more and more brands in the in the hospitality space, take step forwards. Folks like Airbnb and others really take step forwards to create experiences and create accommodations and and and processes that make travel more inclusive. You're even starting to see airlines really kind of take a step forward. How have you experienced that? I mean, do you does that resonate with you, or do you still feel like there's quite a lot of weight ways to go in that industry.

Simon Minty  36:00  
The bit that I like in terms of what you're doing, and I also like about expectations of next generation of disabled people is so much greater. In the sense of you would expect the website, the hotel, the service provider, the airline, the transport, to be so much better than this. I suppose, because of I've done a huge amount of traveling, and I'm still nervous, cautious. I don't quite believe it until I see it, all of those things, which I don't like, but also I can sometimes be a bit grateful because I'm surprised when it works, or I just I don't do it because I don't think it's there. So I it's a perfect example. You talked about Gleneagles, and recently, I just booked a trip to Barcelona, and I was looking at the hotel, and the website just listed all the accessibility features. That's what I need. Then I then I know, because someone's actually spent a bit of time doing it, and that changes the game. But I, I still think I'm a, probably a hesitant person, compared to No, that's not quite the word. I'm still nervous whether they're going to deliver. So I think there is progress, but you still see, you know, Sophie Morgan doing her Rights and Flights. And we know there is progress. It's so much better, but such a long way to go again, which is probably the cliche. 

Phil Friend  37:16  
I think before we we're going to draw things to a close in a second. But my response to that would be, and this is particularly important to me, and I urge you to factor it into your thinking Stephane, which is, I'm an older person. Now, I, you know, I started out being Simon's sort of age, and I did a fair amount of traveling myself. I'm now a much older person, but I still want to travel, but my needs have changed, so I have a different set of expectations. They're not that different from Simon's, but I have a support person with me, my wife, actually, but I do need a lot more help now than I ever needed 15 years ago. I'm not sure how aging and older populations are included in the disability debate. Now, partly, that's because we, we keep talking about, well, I'm not disabled. I'm old. Actually, we are disabled because of the reasons that you know you exist, because there are barriers that get in the way. I don't expect you to respond to this. I'm just saying that when you think about the needs of the disabled population, I am becoming increasingly concerned about older people being forgotten in the conversation about independence. I think it's always been a young person's game independence. No, it isn't. It's an older person's game too. And we, and there are lots of us, so when we look at business cases and all that stuff, there's huge amounts, but don't, please don't respond to that. It's more for our listeners. I just wanted to have a little rant before, before I keep forgetting I'm getting I'm getting older. Anyway, how do we wrap up? Simon,

Simon Minty  38:56  
Well Stephane, we've still got lots more questions, but we're not going to get to them. Is there anything that you anything that you would like to tell us about, any topics that you know really important to you, or the Valuable 500 now that we've not touched on?

Stephane Leblois  39:11  
No, I mean, and you know, I think, you know, I suppose there's so much to say about the things that we're doing. It's also very nuanced. It's very complex. And so I apologise if you know my my answers were a little bit long winded today. But I think that you know, the key thing that I would want to impress, not just on our businesses and but also on our, on our our allies in the space, folks, folks like you, folks like the BDF and others, is we're all in this together. There's, there seems to be, or there has been, some competition, sometimes helpful, sometimes unhelpful, in this space. And I find that I. Uh, it's important to keep a healthy competition when it comes to being, you know, a service supplier. But when you look at the bigger picture, when you look at systems change, there is no room for competition in that. In my mind, it's like, how are we going to get disability more included in a more meaningful way in the next, you know,  UN sustainability, development goals, agenda, like, what like? How do we? How do we answer these big questions as a community we have, we have to do this and kind of leave partisan or competitive lines aside and focus on, what are the objectives? And we're trying to do that in in garnering our companies who could otherwise be competitors to come together, cultivating a community in the valuable directory. But it's, yeah, it's just something that I that I'm very passionate about,

Phil Friend  40:50  
That makes a lot of sense, and I and it resonates. I remember Susan Scott Parker at the Business Disability Forum when it was EFD. I won't name any names, but there were an awful lot of people who saw her as the enemy because A she wasn't disabled, and B, she had the temerity to come up with ideas that might actually be helpful to companies and organisations. But I think we've moved on a long way from those days, but I get your point that we're much, much more effective if we're together than if we're apart. But I think what you're doing is pretty unique, to be fair, I think you're looking at the issues that disabled people face from a very, very senior and strategic level, which is not what we were doing 10 to 15 years ago. If we were it was individual companies. It wasn't the whole so more power to your elbow. I think what you're doing is fantastic and and it's brilliant to see how it's moved on since we first talked to to Caroline, not how long ago? Simon, three, four years now

Simon Minty  41:55  
maybe I'm with you as well, or both of you and I. I think sometimes it's easy just to be a bit snarly about those around us than it is to actually. I like competition when it ups my game, when it makes me think I need to be better at this. Or, well, hang on, they're doing something amazing. I should be doing more of that. And that's what that's the good competition, the sharing, like you said, or make us all a bit more focused. I take your also point, although I agree with Phil, there are unique features, I think, if you're a corporate you say, Well, hang on, who do I join? There's so many different organisations and that that we know the difference, but they don't always know so I can see where that can get muddily. But again, I wanted to ask you about wheelchair rugby and stuff that I know you're involved in, but we maybe we'll have to or you were involved in, but maybe we'll have to save that for another day. I also am very grateful because I've learned two new phrases, purple washing gonna use that haven't heard that before. And did you call them ICONICS? Is that, are they the organisations that are doing something really cool that they're happy to share. I really like that as a phrase or word. 

Stephane Leblois  43:07  
Yeah they're kind of within, you know, our company, partnership of 500 plus companies. They are kind of the, the circle of leaders, if you will, that that have not only supported our organisation financially or within kind resources, but in many respects, are leading the way in practice and in the way they're they're supporting their peers, right? So I think, and they're going to be with our directory, Our Sync, 25 leaders and some of our other allies in this space will be kind of  our support network moving forward to to 2025 and in December so

Simon Minty  43:47  
it's a great concept. It's a great idea.

Phil Friend  43:50  
 Yeah, well, sadly, we are really out of time now, but, and we didn't get, I mean, I would like to talk about the wheelchair rugby as well, but anyway, we'll do that another time. Thank you so much for joining us and giving us your time. I don't think our listeners probably appreciate just how busy you are and what you're up to, but I'm sure we're going to hear more about what you're up to over the next two or three years. I'm looking forward to 2025, to see what you're able to show when you all get together to review progress and so on. So thank you so much for joining us.

Simon Minty  44:29  
Is Glenn eagles. Is Glen Eagles got a hotel in Tokyo? Could we go there would that work?

Stephane Leblois  44:36  
So I don't know if there's a Gleneagle Tokyo. I would, I would ask our friends there. But they're, again, they're, they are among many, many brands and even hotels within our network that are doing fabulous things. So yeah, and we post a lot on socials. We, you know, we write about it in. In, in Forbes, and a couple of other ways. So definitely keep keep up with us. We're, trying to promote the good work that's happening around that network, and there's quite a lot of it.

Simon Minty  45:10  
So thank you. Thank you so much for your time. Lovely to see you too. Thank you. 

Stephane Leblois  45:18  
Lovely to see you all. Thank you.

Announcer  45:20  
This is The Way We Roll presented by Simon Minty and Phil Friend. You can email us at minty and friend@gmail.com or just search for minty and friend on social media. We're on Facebook, Twitter and LinkedIn. You

Transcribed by https://otter.ai