The Way We Roll
A seriously funny take on life from the disability driven duo... Simon Minty and Phil Friend.
The Way We Roll
Keep Making Change - Euan’s Guide and Abbi Brown
We were very sorry to hear of the recent passing of Euan MacDonald MBE. Among Euan’s many achievements was the creation of Euan’s Guide, the award-winning disabled access charity. Perhaps best known for the disabled access review website EuansGuide.com, they also make accessible toilets safer and carry out a huge Access Survey. We remember Euan and talk about his impact.
We’re delighted to welcome back Abbi Brown, although for not the best of reasons. We spoke in July this year about Abbi becoming trapped in her East London flat after the lift in her block was broken, and the property management company were less than useless in helping. Abbi talks us through what she endured, what she had to do and she updates us on the current situation.
Phil wants some winter sun and talks about ageing, disability and difficulty finding the right place to stay. He also talks about being a proud grandfather, after one of his many amazing grandchildren’s recent success in kart racing. Move over, Lewis Hamilton; Albie Friend needs a seat.
Links
About Euan’s Guide (they are on X, Facebook, Instagram and LinkedIn too)
Announcer 0:00
Music. This is The Way We Roll, presented by Simon Minty and Phil Friend. You can email us at mintyandfriend@gmail.com or just search for minty and friend on social media. We're on Facebook, Twitter and LinkedIn.
Simon Minty 0:30
Hello and welcome to The Way We Roll with me. Simon Minty
Phil Friend 0:34
And me Phil Friend.
Simon Minty 0:36
A little bit later on in the show, we will be joined by Abby Brown, if you don't know Abby, she's an amazing disability rights campaign, a Deaf campaigner, but also is in the BBC News couple of months ago because she got stuck in her flat. More to come on that, Mr Friend. Are you well?
Phil Friend 0:56
I'm very, very well indeed. Very, very well indeed. Yes, I have some news. You're now looking at the grandparent of the British and European champion, Albie Friend, Karting 12 years of age, an absolute Hamilton in the making. So I'm basking in the glory. And Simon off air said that he wondered why I wasn't letting him come to Italy with me to watch him, and I was saying because I can't stay in the hotel. But anyway, I'm terribly proud Simon,
Simon Minty 1:26
You should be if the listener doesn't, Albie Friend that must be his last name, Albie.
Phil Friend 1:39
Yeah, Albie Friend.
Simon Minty 1:40
Follow him on Instagram. He's storming it. He's doing amazingly well, hasn't he?
Phil Friend 1:45
Brilliant, absolutely brilliant.
Simon Minty 1:46
Amazing. Because, I mean, you drive fast, but you tend to have crashes, whereas Albie doesn't.
Phil Friend 1:53
Yeah, outrageous, to be fair, just to show he is mortal, he went in for a Grand Prix. It's a sort of one-off race, and he won every single race the day before the finals. In the super heat, he came, I think, second, because he mucked up in the final. He crashed into the wall. He was absolutely furious. So he's, he is mortal, but he's had the most extraordinary season, unbeaten in every Final. So yeah, we're really proud of him and and hoping that you know this will lead to whatever we're not sure yet, and tomorrow or sort of soonish, I know this goes out at certain time, but we're going to have lunch with his brother, who should not be forgotten in all of this. Albie has a brother called Isaac, who's lovely. So that's me, really, yes. What about you? How you?
Speaker 1 2:43
I am good. Let's, let's get it the proud grandparent as you should be. And while we're celebrating, I want to celebrate someone who's sadly no longer with us. You remember Euan McDonald, don't you?
Phil Friend 2:56
I do indeed, very well. I never met you Eaun physically, but I knew all about him. Yeah, absolutely. I'd be amazed if lots of disabled people hadn't heard of him.
Simon Minty 3:05
Um, actually, it's Eaun McDonald MBE and how you will know Him. And this is kind of thinking about this. This is a weird little thing to sort of be remembered by, but Eaun's Guide, which is the fabulous guide that was set up by him and his sister, Kiki. And this was, he became disabled. I think it was around 2013 Oh, no, I think it was disabled beforehand. Set up Euan's Guide, because, as many disabled people realize you become disabled and go, hold up the world's not properly set up for us. So he set it up to give lots of access information. And they do all sorts of different things. Whenever you go in an accessible or disabled. loo, you know, the red cord that people think they should take off the floor because it gets in the way. You'll see the Eaun's Guide little card on it saying, this is meant to go to the floor. Don't put it too high, because if I fall over, I can't reach it. Um, he sadly died recently. That was a long way of introducing it, but I kind of was really, really sad. I mean, I met him a couple of times in Edinburgh, and we've been there with Abnormally Funny People, and although when I'd met him, he didn't have speech, we'd still communicate. I liked himthere was a warmth about him, and he did really make a huge difference.
Phil Friend 4:18
He did and I think it's worth remembering that, because what he was doing was something that, at the time, was pretty unusual. I mean, there was, there was a kind of access, I've forgotten his name. There was a chap who set up something like that. Yeah, there's a non disabled guy who whose father became very severely disabled, and he set up a sort of Access Guide. But it wasn't like Eaun's was a very unique approach, where he, first of all, expected us, the disabled community, to feed back information into their guides so that. But it was at the time, you know, the Internet was obviously around and stuff. If it wasn't, he couldn't have done it. But. It was an early I think we've got a bit used to access guides. Now we've got a lot of more information, and I think a lot of that is down to Euan and his drive and determination, really, because he had a very, very severe impairment, and it didn't help, you know, in that sense, it was a real challenge for him to do certain things, but extraordinary and I used his guide an awful lot. It was very helpful.
Speaker 1 5:26
You reminded me of a couple of things, and I'm just a little bit more. I I'm reading from the website. He got motor neurone disease in 2003 moved back from London. He was working down in the city, and moved back to Edinburgh. Him and his dad set up the Euan McDonald center for MND research. And there was a voice bank project known as speak unique. And then there was the Euans Guide with Kiki in 2013 I think one of the unique things about it is it carried on that we've seen lots of people set up brilliant initiatives, and either exhaustion or funding or involvement, they don't always stick around. Um, whereas Euan's Guide is established. I mean, it's very well linked with Motability as well. So yeah, I agree with it reminds me a little bit of Suzanne Bull, in the sense of with Attitude. Is Everything really great idea. Need to improve access and tell people, but you've got to keep going at it. So our plan is we'll get Kiki on the show, or at least some of the Euan's Guide team next year. So we'll have a proper chat with them more about
Phil Friend 5:35
That would be good, because it would be lovely to hear how they're going to carry on now that Eaun is not with us anymore, and because it's such a vitally important programme. So I'm sure they got plans, and we'll have to ask them what they are, but that's brilliant.
Simon Minty 6:42
They do a massive piece of research from time to time as well. So we'll get the results of that as well.
Phil Friend 6:48
I suppose that leads me on Simon to I wanted to talk about, you know, I think I've mentioned several times in recent podcasts. I'm finding it quite a difficult thing now to stay in anywhere else other than my own house, because my age and my disability are just getting more and more in the way, really, so Euan's Guide, of course, is incredibly important for me, as is the information from the venues themselves to enable me to have a holiday or whatever this isn't a kind of me bleating about this. I'm just sort of saying the point I'm at in my life now means that I am relying more and more on those kinds of things, like Eaun's Guide and so on. Because when we were working together 20, years ago, we'd rock up and put up with it if it wasn't very accessible. So what you know, but not anymore. Can't do that, but I still want to go away. I still want to have holidays and those kinds of things. So what's really striking is how extraordinarily difficult it is to get really accurate information about some of the finer details. So they may say it's accessible, and they might show you some pictures of a bedroom and whatever and whatever. But actually, I need to know, for example, how close can I get my wheelchair to the toilet so I can transfer pretty easily. Now, that's always a given for wheelchair users, but in my particular case, I have to do it in a certain way. So I've now started to ask hotels to send me pictures exactly of that particular view. And it strikes me that with the internet, this wouldn't be difficult to do. Now here's an example. Sue and I were looking for somewhere in, Malaga for a winter break next year, she went online, and she came across a place where they had a video of the wet room and the toilet and the so on, with a woman showing how all the things worked in it. Oh, just brilliant.
Simon Minty 9:00
I was worried you saying there's a video of a woman in a wet room, and you're thinking, well, hold up, where's this going?
Phil Friend 9:05
I think that's why I went on it in the first instance.
Simon Minty 9:09
Stop it my joke was bad enough you've madew it worse.
Phil Friend 9:13
It was it was brilliant. And it took how long? Two minutes. That's all it took. And it was on the website. It was available to anybody. And I think, you know, Sue, my partner is as interested in that access bit as I am, yeah, so you know, those who go away with support workers or with relatives and so on and so forth, friends. This information is so, so important. And it links back to our our mate, Euan, because the Euan's Guide gives you an enormous amount of information which is terribly helpful. What I want is that little bit more personalized stuff that applies perhaps only to me, and that means I need a bit more information about that.
Speaker 1 10:00
I think, you know, I've booked a trip to Barcelona in a month or two, and I asked you to you and our friend Geoff, and he recommended somewhere I went on their website, and they said, I'm still at the stage of step free access. Can get to the restaurant, can get to the room, can get to all the places. And then I know I can manage that part after that, but I know there'll come a point. So you're you're talking about having a an impairment, but also age and the double whammy. So as you get older, you lose a bit of strength, and then if you've got an impairment as well, that could double up. I totally get and the point that website could say, we've got set free access here, we've got accessible rooms, but that's not enough for you. Now you need that extra.
Phil Friend 10:42
So there, you know, when we were talking to Stefan from Valuable 500 and he was talking about Glen Eagles hotels and singing their praises, they have dealt with, it would seem, the critical issues around accessibility. They've thought it through. They've put the information out there, the extra mile that I'm now looking for is the ability for me to phone them and say, or drop them a line and say, Look, this is brilliant. Thank you for that. But could you send me some photographs of this area so I can then make judgments? It's like when I worked with you and we were talking about, you know, adapting cars for disabled people. I can usually tell if you show me a picture of the steering wheel and the dashboard whether my controls will go behind. You know, I don't need you to give me the measurements. I can look at it and see it and boot and the boot size for my wheelchair. I can if you show me a photo, the same is true for this hotel thing. And I think what we've moved away from, there are still examples I've come across where the idea would be, well, you're an older person now, so you go away with other older people, you know, and you all sit in your hotel that we've specially prepared for you all. And we're back to the 1950s I want to go on my own I'm an Independent Traveler, even though I'm getting older.
Simon Minty 11:58
Don't be afraid of other older people. Phil, you'll you can learn a lot from them just hanging out.
Phil Friend 12:05
I don't want to hang about, you know, with I've got to do my own thing. That's what I want to do.
Simon Minty 12:14
Maybe Sue wants to hang out with some other people. I mean, she's like, let's do this group holiday. Why?
Phil Friend 12:21
So I can go and leave you there.
Simon Minty 12:23
You made me smile when you're saying you can look at something. I mean, I do with my tailors, and I take clothes in and they hand them back to me, and I don't have to try anything on. I can look at it and immediately know if they've done the right job or not. And they go, No, it's great. And I'm like, it isn't I can tell you, I never put it on. And they go, oh, so there's that instinct, but you had a motorhome, which meant you knew it was always accessible. But so now you're saying, when we go away, we've got to use other people's premises,
Phil Friend 12:50
We had to sell the motorhome because I couldn't use it anymore. Not, not really. It was still doable, but it was getting more and more risky. So yeah, we sold it. So now we're like many other just ordinary folk who want to go away for a bit of a break and need a hotel or an apartment. This is the other thing. I'm also looking at Airbnbs and all those things. And again, the information isn't consistent enough, although, as I've said earlier, I want precise information. And so for me, the customer service end of this is, are you prepared to send me the photos? And if you're not, I don't want to stay there.
Speaker 1 13:25
I mean, it feels weird to me that 2024 there isn't this level of information already, and I'm curious to whether people don't think it's that important, or no one's thought about it, or whatever, because everywhere I go, there are Instagram accounts and websites telling you all about accessible holidays. And the flip side is, if you went to five of your wheelchair using friends, they would tell you places to go, yeah. But even then, they might say, Well, my needs different to yours. I can't remember whether it was left transfer, right transfer, ba, ba, ba, ba, so. But my last question on this, or my first question on that, I don't know, is the idea of phoning up these, particularly if they're a chain you've got an 08 100 number, you speak to some central place you never really get anywhere are you managing to contact the hotel direct and get that human being to take these pictures for you?
Phil Friend 14:13
We've managed, by and large to I mean, I'm not a business traveler now, so I tend to want not to stay in that packaged arrangement like the travel lodges and the travel you know, the Holiday Inns, who I have nothing against, and who I used an awful lot because they were accessible and I was able to use them. Travel Lodges, particularly, were always you knew what you were getting. I know you still travel around do, you still stay in travel lodges and places
Speaker 1 14:39
the risk of getting in trouble. No Premier Inn has far surpassed Travel Lodge. Travel Lodges are not particularly great now, okay,
Phil Friend 14:46
so, but when we were doing it together, Travel Lodge were right up there, because they were the first, in real terms, to have a whole chain of, you know, Premier Inn, whatever they have. I what I'm looking for now is that more Country House Hotel type thing, where you have more of an experience of the hotel itself, rather than just seeing it as a room you sleep in and then go off and do something. So I think, you know, having a nice meal, having a nice ambience, having a comfortable building that's a bit historic, maybe
Simon Minty 15:16
somewhere you can play dominoes with the other older people,
Phil Friend 15:19
with the other older people, bingo, yeah, go to the Derby and Joan
Simon Minty 15:23
I've got it now. I see what you mean. I remember. Do you remember the Wood Norton? That lovely? It used to be BBC, yeah, BBC management training center, and then turned into a residential or private hotel, but we did it when it was the BBC, I think, Oh, you stayed over there four poster beds and, Oh, it's beautiful. So beautiful. Um, access was a bit hit miss, but I've been there. I've been back there during COVID. Actually, I went with my sister for a couple of days. But I totally take that's a grand old home, and they've had to try and convert it. And that's, you're right. That is not built to regs that we know. This is adapted, and you've got to check out
Phil Friend 16:06
When they've done that. I mean, my experience, my instincts, tell me that when you find these jewels, these absolutely lovely places, getting a room in them, it's hard because everybody's doing it, you know. So it is a business thing too. We're not just talking I mean, my money, as we all know, is the same as everybody else's money. So but I think what we're looking for now is not so much the practical facility type arrangement which business people and others use. I mean, when we go and stay up in Liverpool to visit my son, Jack, we do stay at a Premier Inn because it's around the corner from where they are. And what I do is I recognize I won't shower for a couple of days just because I can't. Well, it says, well, wet room, but it's not right for me, so I can't use it, which is why I have to ask for photos now.
Simon Minty 16:59
I also think that is the guarantee we know as disabled people, if you do find the right place near Jack, that's the one you're always going to go to absolutely every time. And I think if you're starting to go to see Jack a lot, or you're like, three times a year going there I'd want to find my place. But
Phil Friend 17:18
I mean, back in the day, you and I, at one time when we had delusions of grandeur, looked at clubs. Remember? Yes, yeah, having a club, you know, we could go up to town and entertain our clients,
Simon Minty 17:32
They're private members clubs.
Phil Friend 17:34
That's it, those sort of places. None of them were accessible, absolute nightmare. Couldn't find anything, couldn't even get through the front door of most of the places so but yeah, maybe they're last on the list. Maybe Euan's Guide should do a an access audit of all the private members cards.
Simon Minty 17:50
There were a few. Now, I know that much because I've been invited to and I've met people at and in fact, I'm meeting someone soon in Mayfair at the he's a wheelchair user, so I'm pretty safe bet that it will be accessible, but mine's not the loss of grandeur. It's like, I don't understand why I would pay five grand or whatever they are, because when there's a stuff box around the corner,
Phil Friend 18:12
I suppose I can recall we didn't take take this very seriously, but we did at one point we were in London so often, that's the difference, and we wanted to cut out the club appeal was that people knew you there. They you knew the environment. You just turned up and everything was ready. It was that kind of environment. But, yeah, we didn't, we didn't pursue it, but it was a I didn't have breakfast once or twice at the RAC Club, which was accessible from that point of view, and I had to, they wouldn't let me in on one occasion because I wasn't wearing a tie. I said, look, I can't wear a tie because of my disability. I have a scar on my neck, and it irritates
Simon Minty 18:56
Unbelievable.
Phil Friend 18:57
I know it's absolutely true. And he just handed me a clip on tie.
Simon Minty 19:02
You have to wear a tie and a jacket or orange overalls, as if you're going to do roadside maintenance,
Phil Friend 19:09
a wheel brace and a spare wheel with you, and they'll let you in, right?
Simon Minty 19:13
We're going to do a very strange thing. We are going to have a little break before we are joined by our guest, Abbi. So when I say a break, we will be back before you can blink. But for now, will pause
Announcer 19:24
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Simon Minty 19:38
As trailed before our break that new feature, I like having a break. We just need some advertising, don't we?
Phil Friend 19:46
I had a Garibaldi biscuit in the break. Is that advertising?
Simon Minty 19:49
Let's keep the listener with us. We are delighted, although for difficult reasons. Abbi Brown, who has been on our show quite. A few years ago, is our guest. Now, if you've been listening to our podcast, it happened to Abbi in June. We talked about it late July, early August, basically, Abbi got trapped in her flat because the lift wasn't working, and this became big news. I mean, this was BBC and everywhere else. Nice to see you. Abbi, have you got out of your flat since we've
Abbi Brown 20:26
I have? I have got out since June yes it was, it was quite a saga. So it took a week to get access to the lift. For context, I live in half of a building which is locked from the other half by a fire door, which can be opened in the event of a fire, because you can press the, you know, release button if there's a fire, but that door is kept locked at all other times. And so my lift broke. I can see a lift through the glass panel in the door that there's another lift, but I couldn't get access to that for a week, until eventually I went on BBC News Lunchtime News. I was on at one o'clock on Lunchtime News in London, did various radio interviews and then eventually caught the attention of senior people at Crabtree, which is the property management company who manage our building. And they eventually, yeah, let me. Let me use the lift next door.
Phil Friend 21:40
What was the what was the objection to you having, just to refresh our memories? Because the obvious answer is, you press the button and you go in in the other lift, not, not a difficult thing to do. What was Crabtree or the fire officer, or whoever it was, What were their objections?
Abbi Brown 21:55
The fire office had absolutely no objections. Um, Crabtree, frankly, the staff in their office just did not care. They did not want to help me, and they really didn't care that I was stuck in my flat. They were, I would say, extremely rude, actually. So the excuses I was given was they had no idea. First of all, they had absolutely no idea about the layout of the building that they managed. They really didn't know what I was talking about. When I was talking about this door, and they were saying, first of all, they said our office is in central London, so we can't come and unlock door. I live in also central London. I live in East London. They said, Oh, it's a fire door. It needs to be kept locked at all times, which is not true. So I then contacted London Fire Brigade and spoke to a lovely guy there who, you know, sent me a written confirmation email to both myself and to Crabtree, confirming that the that door does not need to be kept locked. It needs to be kept closed, but if it's locked, it will be locked for security reasons, not for fire safety reasons. So I then sent that back to Crabtree again. Absolutely no response. They never even responded to the London Fire Brigade, which is, which is, you know, alarming for a property management company. And just the the attitude was, was awful. The attitude was really they kept telling me, Oh, you just need to bear with us until I went on BBC News, they hadn't even ordered the part for the lift that needed, that needed to be ordered. There's no communication at all between Crabtree and the agency that manages the building next door, which is called Notting Hill Genesis. They've again got lovely staff on their side, but they are quite overstretched, and there seems to be no communication at all with between the two agencies. So in the event that something major happened with this building, like, you know, it needed a new roof or something, I have no idea what their plan is, because they seem to have absolutely no communication.
Simon Minty 24:03
I've got about 17 questions. But just as a I'm interested in how you felt. As an intro to this, two weeks ago, I came home and now I happened to be walking that day, got a taxi to my front door. I got in, and we have two lifts where I live. Both were out, and that sinking feeling. I can feel it now my stomach flips, and I'm like, oh, hell. Now I five flights of stairs. There's a concierge. Was it? Caretaker? People, they carried my stuff up, and I plodded my way up those stairs. I did it. But then I got message from my neighbor, saying, Do you need us to do shopping? Because everyone once you're in I'm now, I'm stranded. I can't get my scooter down. If I could, I can all these things are spinning around my head. And I'd said it's alright. I've been shopping recently, so I think I'm good for a week. I can feel myself blushing because I remember thinking I've got to camp down now. But so you're a wheelchair user every day, presuming you're getting promised something. I mean, how did you feel while this was happening? Is what I'm saying
Abbi Brown 25:03
I was so unbelievably frustrated, and I was so anxious about the whole thing, because it's that feeling of being trapped. At least I was trapped in, rather than trapped out. But when it first broke, I was out, and I came home from actually watching the football, and, you know, feeling really good, feeling really confident, as I do, like, you know, It's taken me years and years to find a proper, accessible home in London, and I love my flat, my flatmate, and I are so happy here. And, you know, and your your home is your safe place, isn't it? It's like the one place in the whole world that is definitely going to meet your needs because it's your home, and then to get home and see and realize that, yeah, as you say, that sinking feeling or thinking, actually I can't the my whole world has just become so much smaller. Yeah, it is horrible. And it's the ongoing anxiety, you know, even after it was fixed, which took four weeks, four weeks for the lift to be repaired, four.
Simon Minty 26:09
Presumably you did you get access to this other lift? You couldn't have stayed in there for four weeks.
Phil Friend 26:14
What finally changed their mind about the locked door, then Abbi the tipping point
Abbi Brown 26:24
Me going on the news, actually, that was it. That was the only way to get attention, which is horrendous. It shouldn't take going on Lunchtime News to get someone's attention,
Phil Friend 26:35
but your ability to, you know, so many disabled people don't have your skills to do that. Do they exactly
Abbi Brown 26:42
like I'm very lucky and very privileged position to be quite vocal. And also, you know, I was just lucky that my story was picked up and someone thought it was worth putting on. It must have been a slow day, though. There wasn't much else to say. But, you know, that's that's
Phil Friend 26:59
The the anxiety, I'm guessing you still have that if this happened again, did, did there was there a plan to say from now on, if this happens, you No, so there's, there's no in your head. So there's no plan in place that allows you to go through that door, press the button, and you're still where you were before effectively,
Abbi Brown 27:20
yeah, there is, so there is. What I now know, which I didn't know before, is that the way that the fire door is connected. So what I was worried about was, if I press that button, you know, the release button, am I going to set off a fire alarm in this whole building? Are all my neighbors going to hate me because they want to evacuate? You know, lots of families and babies around me. I, you know, I don't want to be that neighbor. What they, what we did find out is that it's, it is connected to the whole fire safety system, but basically, the alarm only goes off while the door is open. And so I was so now, so, funnily enough, the lift did break again. It broke last week, and it broke again at the weekend, um, for several days. And so you know, I know that I can go through that door and use the lift next door. The problem is, well, there's a few problems with that. One is that I don't have a fob to get back into the building from their side. Okay, so if I leave, I have to either wait outside and follow someone in, or I'm just pressing random neighbors buzzers hoping that I'm not going to wake up someone's sleeping child with their doorbell going off because I don't have I don't have a key. Nobody seems to have keys to that side. The guy that I was speaking to at the agency that manages that side didn't have any keys himself. He was like, I have no idea where to get them. They must be somewhere, but I don't know where. You know it's it is absolutely ludicrous. The state state of housing in this country,
Simon Minty 28:58
So to clarify so there's two flats, and there's this dividing door, and that's a fire door. Your separate, independent blocks. They're not anything shared but they're saying you need another route of access, so escape or whatever. That's why. Because I was thinking, if you get someone with a fob, I know Timpsons the shoe people, they can make you another FOB, and you'd be fine, but you can't actually locate anyone who's got one.
Abbi Brown 29:24
Well, no, so my neighbors have them. So I did borrow one from a neighbour for a couple of days, but I have to get back. My anxiety about copying them is I've lived in a similar block before, and we did exactly that, where we copied one of our fobs so that we had to spare. Yeah, actually, they only gave us two, and there were three of us living there, so we needed, we needed a third and but when we copied it, it was security locked. So when we copied it, it blocked both fobs and so I really don't want to do that to my neighbour. So when I spoke to the guy at Notting Hill Genesis, sorry, it's very complicated, so they managed the other side. When I spoke to him, I explained that, and he said, well, I can't be sure that that will happen, but it's unlikely in a small, modern building like this, but I lived in exactly the same kind of age and style and style of building before, because they are, you know, they're always accessible and that did happen. So I was like, I don't feel comfortable borrowing a neighbor's fob and then potentially giving it back to them not working.
Simon Minty 30:28
The point is you weird, sort of almost saying you've got to do this, you've got to do that, and you really shouldn't have to do I mean, I have done that, by the way, and I it's fine. I haven't locked it, but I moved two years ago, and I remember you said, to find the right accessible properties really hard when I was looking at them. It's so limited, particularly where you might live, and obviously new builds are accessible. And then if someone had one lift, I'd get a bit jumpy places. They said, we've got two lifts. I suddenly relaxed a bit because I thought I stand a chance. But that is immensely limiting on where you may live, and then they cock it up, like I haven't got a question, I'm getting angry.
Abbi Brown 31:06
Yeah, exactly. And that is why we, why we chose to live here. So when we came to visit, you know, when we first saw this flat, we I'd looked on the blueprints on the Council website, so I knew that there were two lifts. And then we came to the view the flat, and I could see the lift through the door, and I could see the door was locked. And I said to the estate agent, will it be possible to get access to that lift in the event that one on this side breaks? And she said, yeah, absolutely. I explain that back to Crabtree, and he said, Oh, well, why would the estate agent know? Of course, the estate agent won't know, but they don't comprehend that the way that renting works in London. I can't wait while I have some back and forth with whoever is in charge about whether I can get access to that site, because, you know, the flat would be gone. So we just, you know, we have, we had to take the estate agents word for it.
Simon Minty 31:59
That's your landlord. So you're renting as your landlord helped on this. I don't want get you in trouble, then you have to move out because of your bloody landlord have they been helpful.
Abbi Brown 32:08
So we went through a another property management agency. There's so many agencies involved in this, and they've been that, yeah, they've been, they're really nice, but unfortunately, they're, you know, in the same position as me that they can't get anywhere either. The
Phil Friend 32:25
The villain of the piece, is Crabtree. And I'm hearing as a sort of summary, is that you are now a delinquent. You press a button that you're not supposed to press, and you use another lift when you're not supposed to use it. But the fire service have said that's fine. Crabtree have said they haven't a clue what's fine and what isn't, basically, and they don't know anything estate agents know, or who anybody else knows. For that matter, no God alive!
Abbi Brown 32:56
Yeah. And it's just the, it was just the mind blowing, going round and round circles. You say that first week when, when it was broken, I didn't know, but I could use that lift. On the other side, I was, you know, I'm deaf, I find phone calls quite difficult, and I spent the entire week on the phone because no one responds to emails. So I spent the whole week on the phone. I had very lucky I've got really good friends that live locally, so couple of them came around to help me with phone calls, because I was just getting so frustrated. I had an offer of free interpreting help from real nice guy who runs a communication support agency but it was just so much. And it's that added labour, I guess, of of of being disabled, because that entire week, my employer is is aware I was not working, like I was technically working, but I couldn't get anything done, because when I wasn't on the phone to someone, I was just worrying, yeah, or trying to contact the BBC
Phil Friend 33:58
You must have been so distracted.
Abbi Brown 34:01
I couldn't concentrate, and everything is just, it's such an, you know, it's an additional layer of, you know, all of that on top of of,
Phil Friend 34:14
So let's look at the remedy that you've used. Is, is your own remedy, and it and it works, but it's not the remedy, is it? I'm wondering whether there's any recourse in law, whether there's an ombudsperson or, you know, denial of reasonable adjustments, or, you know, I mentioned offline that HSE contacted me about your your problem, because person at HSE had got a similar issue arising with someone who contacted them, and he'd asked me to find out what had happened with your situation. And I've said, Look, you're coming on the show, so he better listen in and he'll find out. But I'm wondering, Abbi, in your experience, given how much. Investment you've got in this. What might be done to put this right? Because there's a systemic or a process issue here.
Abbi Brown 35:08
Yeah, there is, I think, I think there's two sides to this. One is the access side, and one is more broadly this. I don't know if it happens in other cities, but in London, we do have this system of development where developers have to create, they build a social housing side and a non social housing side, and I live in the private side, and the other side is social housing, and it does create, you know, there are always issues when you build these kinds of buildings, where there's segregation, there's divide, and one side is managed differently to the other side, it's always going to create, you know, I've heard of cases of people being locked on the other side in a, you know, a nine story building where they're not allowed to use the lifts on the private side because they're in the so, you know. So it goes both ways. And there are, you know, having the door unlocked is a safety issue. Unfortunately, there is. We do get both sides. We get parcels stolen. We get, you know, when the fire door is unlocked my flatmate was woken up the other day by someone kind of standing in the door for quite a long time with the alarm going off. Fortunately, I'm deaf, so I take my aids out so I don't know. I had no idea, so that's so that's one issue. And then the other issue is the the access angle. The London fire brigade suspected that it could be a contravention of the Equality Act, because I need to have reasonable access to the street. It's not really a health and safety issue, because I can get out in the event of a fire, I can press the button in the event of a fire. You know, that's what it's designed for. So it's not really a health and safety issue. I contacted quite a few various ombudsman and legal like pro bono legal firms, because I really just felt like I wanted something concrete, you know, to come back to corruption and be like, This is illegal. And what I found is it's really quite complicated, because it's, it's a combination of housing law and discrimination law, and apparently it's just quite complicated to do anything with it. So unfortunately, I never really got anywhere, and everyone just kind of said, you know, unfortunately, we can't really help with this. So I'm not sure what, what our report is legally, which is frustrating. If anyone knows, please do, please do get in touch
Simon Minty 37:44
Well, particularly because it's still happening and this is a lift that's clearly going to start getting rickety, or it's going to get very expe. They've got to replace it. I cannot believe that no one can locate the original FOB. The dispensation was, you get that FOB. This is, you know, pretty much I'm sensing that they've sold it, because then you could come and go, yeah, yeah, it would solve it. But
Abbi Brown 38:10
yeah, they, they're now just not replying to me at all, to sort of the agency that managed the other side. They, they're now not just not responding to me at all.
Simon Minty 38:18
And there's both ends of the massive legal You're ruining my freedom or independence. And then there's give me a fob, and I'll be done. I remember the bit that it wasn't complicated to solve, and yet everybody made it complicated.
Abbi Brown 38:33
Yeah, and the burden was very much on me, as you know well, have you spoken to the we don't know what the fire brigade thinks. So I was like, right I'll contact the fire brigade, and I'll get this from the fire brigade and take that back to them. They're like, Oh, well, we don't know anyone in the agency who manages next door. We don't know who manages the building next door. Okay, I found this out. I found their name. I've got their contact details. I'm supplying all of this to you at Crabtree? Oh, well, now, actually, the person that can do this is is unwell. They're in hospital, okay, but I don't think Crabtree has managed surely there's another employee who can take this on, relying on one person
Phil Friend 39:17
We often talk, do we not, as disabled people, about the social model of disability. And one of the barriers that we bang on about all the time is attitudinal. And here we have a classic example of somebody, or somebody's whose attitude is sod you they could simply say, I mean, you've given some very positive feedback about certain individuals like the London fire brigade person and the person that looks after your the person you rang and talked to about whether there were certain things you could do in your block. Crabtree is staffed by people whose attitude need changing because they're not their help. They're trying hinder, aren't they? They could have solved this problem months ago,
Abbi Brown 40:02
Exactly. And all I wanted, actually, was communication. You know, all I wanted was a date, just to say, this is when it's going to be fixed. This is what we're trying to do. These are the barriers that we're facing. There was no response at all, until I went and there was response. But, you know, they just kept saying, bear with us, until I went on TV, which is, which is a ridiculous way to handle anything.
Simon Minty 40:02
rWe thought it's gonna be a quick 10 minute. We could do another round. Couldn't we? I do, as someone who has lived in leasehold properties, and I have to pay the service charge, which goes to the managing agents, and my lifts go out, I get pretty shirty, and I know they're trying to look at how leasehold can be done differently, and the right to manage but you're renting as well, so you're another step away from that. It's all dependent on a good landlord, who's going to then push the managing agents and so on and so forth.
Abbi Brown 40:58
And, you know, we were talking about, maybe you should withhold rent. Well, that won't help, because then I'd be withholding rent from a different agency to the you know, perhaps you would never be affected.
Phil Friend 41:08
I think there's a, I think a letter to the deputy prime minister. I mean, an email. Letters are very old, fashioned an email to the Deputy Prime she's responsible for housing, isn't she? I mean, there is something going on here that's completely wierd.
Abbi Brown 41:08
I did contact the Mayor's Office for for Tower Hamlets, which is where I live, and they were, again, they were really helpful. The local council were really helpful. But unfortunately, because it's a private agency, they don't really have a huge amount of control, and so they were just being met with the same kind of resistance that I was.
Simon Minty 41:43
Or a letter to Lord Ali, because he's got lots of properties. He'll lend you one. Yeah, he's relevant to
Phil Friend 41:49
He'd give you a new outfit and some glasses, new hearing aids.
Speaker 1 41:56
Of course, I feel for you, Abbi, and I was so frustrated for you, and I wasn't even living it. So thank you. I'm so sorry you experienced it, and I hope this lifts gets sorted and Crabtree sort out their game.
Abbi Brown 42:15
Yeah thank you. And I would say what's been really positive about the whole experience with so many people offered so much help, um, not just London fire brigade, but also, I put it on Twitter, put it on Instagram, did the usual kind of round, and had so much support from people, which, really does make a big difference, even though, unfortunately, can't change anything. But it really does help to know, you know everyone's rooting for me.
Phil Friend 42:42
Well, we certainly are. That's true, absolutely. Well, look, you've got to go. We know you're busy. You're probably going to have to dash off 50 emails to Crabtree. And if we get any feedback, Abbi from our listeners or the HSE chap, I'll certainly let you know.
Abbi Brown 42:59
That'd be great. Thank you, and thanks so much for having me on again. It's really nice to see you both. Thank you, virtually, this time.
Simon Minty 43:06
Yeah, good point. Nice seeing you too.
Phil Friend 43:09
Take care. Abbi, cheers.
Abbi Brown 43:11
Thank you. Bye.
Phil Friend 43:15
Where do you start with that? I mean, it's just crazy. It is about individuals not wanting to help, isn't it the fundamental bit of it, because it didn't seem to be any particular once London Fire Brigade, said what they'd said, and HSE said, you know, they can't be involved in this. And the local authorities, you know, once she got all that, it's about the individuals at Crabtree that are the problem, not you know
Simon Minty 43:40
When my lift went out recently, and we've got two lifts. One had been out for about three weeks, and I knew that's when I started getting jumpy, because now I'm down to one, yeah, then the other one went out, and then I right, I'm on this because I have to. When one went out and it'd been two weeks, I wrote them and said, Look, one's gone if the other one goes. So we need to sort that other one. Then the other one went and I really got on it within 24 hours, it was fixed. And that's the point. They can they can fix them. It is very rare that a lift takes six weeks to repair. Four weeks to repair. It's get the part, put it in, off you go again. So yeah, it's just a lack of will, a lack of engagement.
Phil Friend 44:22
And it might be, to be fair to people, it might be the supplier of the part that's the problem, ie, their attitude, oh, this doesn't matter. We put, you know,
Simon Minty 44:30
But Abbi was saying, fine, if you tell me you've ordered it and it's coming, but nothing.
Phil Friend 44:37
I suppose the answer is, I suppose what the rest of the world there might be a lot of people saying, well, you know, it's your own fault. I mean, what are you wanting to do buy flats.
Simon Minty 44:47
She's renting.
Phil Friend 44:48
Yeah, well, rent. You shouldn't be renting these places. You need to live in bungaloes all of you, that's where you should be.
Simon Minty 44:56
As disabled people, we've all got enough money to rent a bungalow in central London,
Phil Friend 45:01
Well, you're all getting those benefits, aren't you? Loads of money every week.
Simon Minty 45:05
I would say there was only one good thing about both our lifts going out of action, which was, I've never met more of my neighbors just by going up the stairs. There was lots of us going up and down. People with take aways Deliveroo was just standing around in the lobby there. I'm not going up, but 11 flights of stairs, and I kept bumping into neighbours with their dogs. I mean, I was out of puff. I couldn't do it, but it was remarkable.
Phil Friend 45:30
It's like COVID, where we all came outside and bang drums and suddenly you saw your neighbours who you'd never met yet, exactly, and saucepan lid or whatever it was, yeah. Anyway, I mean, it seems that Abbi's got a solution, but the actual problem hasn't been resolved at all.
Simon Minty 45:45
And I, I had a couple of messages building up to today, and she said, it's gone again. And you're like, stop it. Abbi. Her disposition is, I'm going to resolve this. What would go on in my head and how my heart and my stomach must have been so frustrating you feel quadrupled disabled again, yeah, because you've managed to get your life. Abbi said, It's my home. You were saying it, it's my home. It works for me. And then suddenly people have pulled everything away, and they're not sorting it out. It's a horrible feeling,
Phil Friend 46:21
And I think there's nothing worse, whatever the situation where you feel powerless, where you just can't change it, short of going out and getting the part yourself and turning up and fitting it what I mean, but there'll be rules about doing that
Simon Minty 46:35
Now when I do my next career development programme. I'll say if you're not enjoying working for this organisation, why don't you become a lift engineer, we need, lift engineers,
Phil Friend 46:44
There's a role. It goes back to the days when the green card where the prescribed jobs was a lift attendant. So you could not only fix the lift, but now you see we had lift attendants. They could repair their own lifts. A plan. I think we might have a bit of a plan here they sit in their lifts surrounded by spare parts. There's no room for passengers
Simon Minty 47:07
Couldn't get a wheelchair user in there, but
Phil Friend 47:10
Anyway, we ought to end Mr. Minty,
Simon Minty 47:13
Yes. Well, nice seeing you. Lovely having Abbi back on the show, and obviously our condolences to Eaun McDonald's family, but I still think that celebration he had a huge impact, so we'll look forward to getting them on the show later on.
Phil Friend 47:31
Keep up the good work.Euan's Guide important
Simon Minty 47:36
Okey doke,
Phil Friend 47:37
take care, Simon. And we'll see each other soon.
Simon Minty 47:40
We will take care too.
Announcer 47:43
This is The Way We Roll, presented by Simon Minty and Phil Friend. You can email us at mintyandfriend@gmail.com or just search for minty and friend on social media. We're on Facebook, Twitter and LinkedIn.
Transcribed by https://otter.ai