Have the life chances of disabled people improved in the UK since 2005?

It is often said that politicians only think short-term. However, twenty years ago, the Labour government released a report titled “Improving the Life Chances of Disabled People.” This cross-government strategy outlined a programme to enhance the opportunities and life chances for disabled individuals by 2025. The aim was that this year, disabled people in Britain would have full opportunities and choices to improve their quality of life and be respected and included as equal members of society.  

We ask whether it succeeded in its aim and wonder why there isn’t a piece of research (that we know of) showing what has changed. 

Barclays recently made headlines with its mystery shopping contract with Ipsos. The bank informed Ipsos that they’d rather some mystery shoppers be blind or deaf; however if that wasn't possible, individuals could simulate the conditions of being blind or deaf. We discuss the pros and mainly the cons of ‘cropping up’. 

Finally, we preview some of the guests who will be coming to the show in 2025. 

Links

Summary of Improving the Life Chances of Disabled People on Navigator 

Transport for All Roadmap to achieving Disability equality by 2025

Guardian reports on Barclays using non-disabled people pretending to be disabled 

Article (from 1998 and still relevant) on the pros and cons of disability simulation exercises by Kevin Donnellon on Medium 

Chapters

• 0:45 Festive Period Review
• 5:49 Improving the life chances for disabled people
• 24:25 Barclays simulating Disability
• 38:59 This year's guests

Transcript

Announcer  0:00  
Music. This is The Way We Roll, presented by Simon Minty and Phil Friend. You can email us at minty and friend@gmail.com or just search for minty and friend on social media. We're on Facebook, Twitter and LinkedIn.

Simon Minty  0:31  
Hello and welcome to The Way We Roll with me Simon Minty

Phil Friend  0:34  
 and me, Phil Friend, 

Simon Minty  0:36  
now it is the end of January, but a belated Happy New Year to our listeners and to you, Mr. Friend, 

Phil Friend  0:41  
and to you too, Mr. Minty. 

Simon Minty  0:42  
Yeah, any highlights from the festive period 

Phil Friend  0:42  
Only that I all the Quality Street far too quickly, donated by our friend, Mr. Spink. The highlight was that my eldest son decided that we should have Christmas at his place. So without going to huge detail, about 24 people descended on his house, except his house is not fully wheelchair accessible, so we couldn't really congregate in there all the so his cunning plan was, let's do it in the garage. So he has a very large garage, very old, wooden clad garage, and he and his partner, Jenny, I don't know how long they worked on it, but it was a long time, massive effort. They turned this garage into a virtual nativity stable. We all had to go dressed up as part of the Nativity. So Sue sewed some years onto a little flying helmet. I've got reversed it, and went as a camel. I went as a shepherd, various people. It was brilliant, absolutely brilliant. 

Simon Minty  1:52  
Did anyone go as a little donkey? 

Phil Friend  1:54  
Not that I'm aware of. I think we all played the fool. Anna, my granddaughter, who's 15, she went dressed as the Virgin Mary with a doll, one of these dolls that's incredibly lifelike. It looked like a baby, but it had this very weird sort of sneer on its face. It was brilliant how they pulled it off. I have no idea. The food was great. It was all cooked and hot and everything. It was fabulous, 

Simon Minty  2:21  
cold, though cold, 

Phil Friend  2:23  
well, now there's a thought, yes, because it was cold, but what they've done was they cut a hole. George had cut a hole in the door and bought one of these industrial space heaters that you see often in garages and places like that. And he shoved the pipe through the door. The machine was outside, and that was it toasty, very toasty. And he put me right back. We all had place settings with little cards, yes, so I was by the by the thing. So that was the highlight of Christmas, in that sense. And I great congratulations to George and Jenny pulling that off. 

Simon Minty  2:57  
24 is a lot, 

Phil Friend  3:00  
yeah, it is a lot. Yeah, it is a lot. It is a lot. And we all brought a dish or two or three dishes, so everybody contributed to the meal. And George's the logistics was trying to keep it all hot, so he had barbecues everywhere, and hostesses. And anyway, I was, I was knackered just watching him, 

Simon Minty  3:20  
um, as a you remind me I had a very low key one, but one thing I they all came to me for the first time, but because it's all a bit messy this year, kind of long story short, I cooked brussels sprouts. Pasta bake. 

Phil Friend  3:33  
Sounds riveting. 

Simon Minty  3:35  
It was brussel sprouts, chopped new potatoes, sage what was the other ingredient? Oh, gruyere cheese and 

Phil Friend  3:44  
so vegetarian, really, no meat.

Simon Minty  3:47  
 I had some very posh pasta from Carlucci, which someone gave me as a gift. That whacking great, huge pastel. And they all loved it. My sister doesn't even like Brussels sprouts, but she woofed it down. I think they're all a bit bemused, because it wasn't quite we had Turkey later on, by the way, when we had a bigger gathering. But yeah, I've still got some in the freezer. So next time you pop over, 

Phil Friend  4:11  
did you? Did you roast the brussels sprouts?

Simon Minty  4:14  
 Okay, let me tell you through my method. . It's a Nigella recipe. And although it is very simple, it's still quite stressful for me cooking for all these people on my lowered kitchen you boil them or par, boil them along with the new potatoes, and you obviously do the same with the pasta, and then you put it all in a tray and roast it. But you put your gruyere cheese in there, and your sage and butter, see? So it's boiled to begin with, and then you bake it

Phil Friend  4:47  
. I think Sue was the reason I asked that was because Sue contributed brussels sprouts to George's thing. Yeah, and she did roast them. And we'd never done that before. We'd only ever had the sort of boiled. My mum was famously good at Brussels sprouts. She would kill them. She would boil them for days, so just mush, yeah, but not many people like Brussels sprouts. It seems maybe can tell us 

Simon Minty  4:47  
very light, touch, boil, and they were delicious. The thing is, you do come home when your flat stinks, Brussels sprouts? Yeah, yeah. 

Phil Friend  5:22  
Well, good for you. So, yeah. So Christmas was good. It was, it was, it was fine. 

Simon Minty  5:27  
We have a packed show for the listener. Um, we're going to cover off a big report from 2005 in a moment, we will look at what Barclays are doing. Interestingly, he uses that word advisory around disability and their customers, and then we're gonna have a little look forward to some of the shows we've got already planned for the rest of the year. So let's kick off with, well, I remember this happening, Mr. Friend. It's called the improving the life chances of disabled people, and this was around 2005 Tony Blair, 

Phil Friend  6:02  
it was 2005 and I should declare an interest that I sat on one of the committees that looked at all this

Simon Minty  6:08  
 Well, let me, I want to get that from you, but let's just tell the the listener. I mean, some of you have been around and you remember it, but it is very interesting that point of we have a 20 year plan, and in 20 years time, who's still around, who is part of it? Well, you are, Phil, but um, so I'm going to hold you to account. But so this was a cross government strategy setting out a program to improve the opportunities and life chances for disabled people. The objective was, by 2025 disabled people in Britain should have full opportunities and choices to improve their quality of life and will be respected, included as equal members of society. Four key areas, very sort of light touch, independent living, and that, whether that's you know, support for local authority having budgets and making your own choices, support for families who might have a disabled child, support for the transition when the child becomes an adult, and making sure there's still services and support for disabled child, stroke adult and support incentives for employment and training. The idea being we will have achieved this by 2025 which is this year. Have we done it? Phil, 

Phil Friend  6:42  
no. So we move on to the next topic, yes. So what a great thing. 

Simon Minty  7:26  
Let me let's dig a little bit deeper. What? Why did you just say no, or any of those four areas? You know, we were looking at employment. We're going to transition for child to adult independent living.

Phil Friend  7:40  
 I must admit, I don't, I'm not an expert on the child transition thing. You know, my role on that committee, and I do remember it, and there was some very, you know, esteemed, eminent and esteemed people on it. My role was around the employment space, as you'd expect, because that's what we used to work in. So I can't talk about the transitional the employment thing, seems to me, is is really not that much further on than it was when we talked about it. In 2005 there have been improvements in some areas, and I think there have been developments from 2005 I would I would say, for example, purple space. Kate Nash, the development in employment of employee networks, which I think has made quite a difference for the mainstream, big employers, certainly for government agencies, because they have disability networks in them. I think that's an interesting development. I think the Access to Work stuff has been improved, although I you know, because I'm not so fully engaged these days, I suspect that the waiting times and things like that are probably much as they were. But in terms of delivering, let's say, equivalent employment for disabled people as for non disabled people. Clearly, we're miles off that. I think there's a 26% gap between those two groups. So we've also 2008 famously big recession, bank crisis, all that stuff, COVID  We've got knocked off our bike by one or two things. But I'd be interested in others who might listen to us, who were involved in that stuff, what they think of it. I personally on the employment side of it. I think independent living that has taken a real hit, and I think that's because of the difficulties in finding appropriate employment for support workers, the incredible demise in local authority funding, which has affected Independent Living massively for local. Individuals. We did a feature, didn't we on Bristol, a chap in Bristol last year where, clearly he was very worried that he was going to go back into an institution. So I think there may be a sense that things have improved, but when you look at it in the hard light of day, you'd have to say, we're not really not that impressive. Happy New Year do you agree with me. 

Simon Minty  10:26  
Half and half I'm sort of floating a bit higher and just looking down? And there's a couple of things. One, I have tried to find someone who is doing, or has done a report to say, these are the changes, right? It's 20 years. And you want to kind of go, Okay, what government department are meant to be reviewed? Does anybody in government departments remember this happening? There's a, I'm almost feel we always say politicians, these are very short term. They just look at the next, you know, couple of years while they're in power. And it's too short. This was something that was long term, yeah. And I now want to know, but presumably, actually labor were back in so maybe they would revisit it, because they say this was our predecessors. I think we probably had five different new strategies or strategic plans for disabled people since then. So maybe they're all been they, what's the word supplant to this one? Or they've moved on. I agree with you. Employment rate exactly the same. As far as I can tell. It's always this, 50% disabled peeps and 80% non disabled peeps. I agree the way I look at it, and this is very generalizing. We always do this. It feels to me, if you're in work and you have a disability, that your representation, your voice, your engagement, may be stronger, but what about all those people who are long term unemployed, have a disability and just can't get back in there? We do, and I, although I was teasing you about whether it's the recession, whether it's the other global financial crisis, whether it's COVID, there is this huge change in the people who are not economically active and not interested, and they have mental health conditions, maybe long COVID. There's a whole bundle of people who aren't in the work. What's the word looking to be part of the workforce anymore? I think the change in what we think disability is has changed massively in 20 years, neuro divergence. We were just about talking about mental ill health that was always under the Act, but neuro divergent conditions now are so prevalent in terms of the conversation. Not all of them fit the Equality Act. But you know, it's how we think about disability now, I think is very different, because I just think there's a whole bundle of people in there. I think of things like PIP and I don't know when it was, was it 2010 2012 and the government said, we're going to review this, get people off it. And instead, they've got more people than they've ever done. So they've stopped the review, we've got access to work that has dropped. Everything I'm hearing is it's really hard now and not as good and not as helpful as it was. 

Phil Friend  13:09  
There's another major shift, which perhaps is the retirement age changed between 2005 and now so that people retired later in order to get the state pension, the pension age was raised. And what we've noticed, of course, is that that means people who are older are now working longer, so people are the reasonable adjustment issue is affecting a much older age group, potentially within employment. So if you've got a job and you're 67 you might need some adjustments, simply because of an aging related issue. I mean, that's it's under the radar, that kind of thing, but that's happened too, that the fact is that more and more people are working late. But as you said, there's also a lot of evidence to say people aren't working at all. You know, the increase in people. What is it? 500,000 people, 600

Simon Minty  14:04  
 I keep coming back. Bring use the title of it improving the life. Chances are these improvements or or not? Um, the only one other one I had, and I do that, the overarching thing was about disabled people having a better position in society. Yeah, I know I can hear the voices already, the people who are going to disagree with me on this. However, I genuinely believe in the last 20/30, years, the prevalence, the acknowledgement, the out and aboutness, the visibility of disabled people, has improved. That is, I will never say we've cracked it or it's great. We're part of the gang. I went to a restaurant last night, and actually there was a step and that, but actually found out, no, they do have a ramp. They would have done that. There was an accessible loot. It's me not quite saying. I do think the position of disabled people with the general public is better than it's. Ever been, 

Phil Friend  14:04  
well, that we've, of course, had 2012 didn't we the Olympics? Yeah, we did. And that, I think many people agree, and I know there's a big issue here about, you know, Paralympic athletes and all that stuff. They're not ordinary people, that whole super crip thing. But actually, it did transform the way people looked at disability. I think Sophie Morgan's work, you know, there have been, there have been, I would agree with you. I think there have been changes to the way 

Simon Minty  15:34  
people sitting on boards, people involved in different committees, representation on stage, on television, all the things that I love, I also, and I just think, don't get me wrong, it's not perfect, but I think if people are planning things, disability is more likely to pop up, not enough. And plenty of times we know they forget. But I just feel there is an acknowledgement that disability is part of the ground apps. You know, what are your interests? Disability rights will be one of them. Now that didn't used to appear. It is now seen as so 

Phil Friend  16:06  
I suppose the question is, did that work the lifetime chance? Really? Yeah. Did it actually impact this? IE, we're saying, oh, disabled people are more around and stuff. Well, maybe that's true. But did this actual 20 year plan have things in it that made that happen, I would argue, probably not. It happened because of other things. 

Simon Minty  16:29  
Rosie Jones, yeah, she did that. She's done most of it. 

Phil Friend  16:32  
Simon Minty goggle box, 

Simon Minty  16:33  
Phil Friend, yeah, yeah. that fella. So if it said improving the life chances of disabled people by Simon Rosie and Phil it would have been spot on. We should claim the credit. I mean, by the way, I can't think of enough names of all the great people who've done amazing work. So apologies but, but I don't know. Is it you can't always credited to single things. Is it a general movement, just having that existing? I suppose, I think of all the was it the disabled people's office, obviously, office with disability issues or whatever? Yeah, there were government departments. Was it the DRC was still around? I think in 2005 wasn't it? Didn't it go in question? I think it went in 2007 or something. So there were, there were sort of statutory bodies that were pushing all of this, and they 

Phil Friend  17:27  
and policing it and policing it, yeah, um, 

Simon Minty  17:31  
we now have ambassadors, don't we, which is sort of mixed. Even the ambassadors aren't always sure how amazing it is, but they do exist. It's not the same as a ODI or a DRC, though, 

Phil Friend  17:42  
no, and it's, and they don't have any power, do they? Oh, it's about power. Simon, it's all about power. 

Simon Minty  17:50  
Soft Power. Soft power. 

Phil Friend  17:52  
I suppose the other thing generally feels, I don't know that. You know, there is a general feel, isn't there in the country at large that, oh God. You know, it's all a bit, I think, when you have a 2012 event where everybody just, I think the nation, I don't know about everybody, but I certainly felt I went to somebody, yeah, I'm speaking of everybody. There was a bounce and a spring and a we can do stuff. You know, Britain, we're all right at this kind of thing, that feeling that was around at the time, people talking to each other on the tube, you know, massive change in British culture. But we haven't had, I think it's been a bit gloom and despond since 2008 

Simon Minty  18:37  
so a couple of clarification. Is slightly meandering off here. But Simon Sharma has a new television show. I think it's called, this is us or the state of us, or it's basically a snapshot. But he's trying to look at the country as a cultural thing, right? Culture bit in and they've revisited 2012, and two. Oh, the train spotting. Guy who directed Danny Boyle. Is it Danny Boyle? He did the opening ceremony, didn't he exactly and him, and there's a someone caught royal Brown, who is anyway, the two or three of them involved, and they said, don't forget, that was still austerity kicking around. We had a few months of happiness. It wasn't like suddenly, for two years, the whole place was excited. It was while that was happening, we and always they said, Everybody thought it was going to be crap. They thought it was going to be the most awful thing. So that's such low expectations, because we're miserable old Brits. There is still, I've heard Ricky Gervais. I don't agree with a lot Ricky Gervais, but as I said, Americans are more optimistic and more proud than ask glam old Brits sometimes. And there's something in that. So I don't know your your bit of these little markers along the way. I agree, but that isn't really the report. It's it should be about have all those general things, is the tide risen? 

Phil Friend  19:50  
I think, I think I would have to say no, and I'm not saying that there's necessarily blame for that. I think there have been world events that. Will have certainly impacted on the desire to be Phil Yeah. But some of these are pretty mega, I mean, a war in Ukraine, which puts prices up on everything, fuel costs, you've got the COVID thing, you've got the banking crisis, which actually, some would argue was could have been seen coming. I think those big things do, do suck the life out of your ability? Because if you haven't got the money that you need to do some of the things to help disabled people live more independently, or you're reallocating that money to producing support for Ukraine, say it's been taken away from, you know, there's no question, social care and those kinds of things have been stripped of the NHS lack of investment. God, I'm depressed again. 

Simon Minty  20:04  
But also I don't agree with you. I think you're really muddling things 

Phil Friend  20:47  
How dare you. 

Simon Minty  20:48  
You're kind of saying that Access to Work has suffered because of Ukraine. And I don't think they're related. And second, the NHS has had more investment it's ever in in years and years and years. It might not be enough. I don't know if that's related. You're kind of conflating other things there. 

Phil Friend  21:02  
Well, I'm not. What I'm saying is that, you know, the things that rely on investment. This report was about investing. Yes, it was about life chances, putting more money into this, training people to do that, getting employers to change their attitudes about this. That's what it was about. Now the government have to make choices about where they're going to put the money. If there's things going on in Ukraine, then you take money from that pot and put it in that pot. And it seems to me that some of the things that we would value have been investment in social care. Social Care is a complete mess

Simon Minty  21:40  
social care wasn't, well, I suppose it was in terms of, yeah, the independent Independent Living bit, yeah, 

Phil Friend  21:44  
you can't live independently if you got, can't get staff. I yeah,

Simon Minty  21:48  
 I still, I don't know. I think there's, I don't know, what am I trying to say? There may be an indirect correlation. I feel it's almost like you're saying Independent Living fund dropped because of a war in Ukraine or something? 

Phil Friend  22:03  
No, no, I'm not saying directly, I was using it more as a thing that there have been these major crises along that journey that have derailed some of this 

Simon Minty  22:14  
austerity, whatever it was, with a conservative government, I totally agree, and that everything was stripped right back. Yeah, I totally agree. And we're not necessarily in a great place right now as well. 

Phil Friend  22:27  
No, so no, we're not, although there is a determination this time around to invest in public services, so that may well have a knock on effect into I must look at the Sharma program, because I think, yeah, there is something about the way we feel at the moment. I think there's a there's a sense of gloom, isn't there? 

Simon Minty  22:46  
He talks about the End of the World War Two, and everyone going, yay. And him saying to his father, you know, we've still got a lot of glum this to come, because it was still in the mess. And then fifth, 1951 festival of Britain and the country lifted, and we went, 

Phil Friend  23:02  
but, and interestingly, still rationed. Rationing was still around. You know, people couldn't still get stuff. It was, I was a very young child then, but even so, well, I didn't feel glum when the war ended. I thought it was good thing, yeah, 

Simon Minty  23:15  
but what he meant was, it wasn't everyone was cheering, but it wasn't like, oh my god, it's all brilliant again. 

Phil Friend  23:21  
 London was a bomb site just the same. It still had to be rebuilt. 

Simon Minty  23:25  
Here's a little interesting fact for no one. Skylon, which is the restaurant at the Royal Festival, yes, was named after the thingy. Yes, I didn't know this. it's a kind of large statue, almost, but it's like a torpedo, but it was huge. It was sort of cylindrical metal. It was a kind of obelisk. 

Phil Friend  23:45  
It was a bit like, a little bit like the Gherkin, but sharper and thinner, sharper and thinner. Yes, I do remember it. I can remember that the Skylon, yeah. Phil, yeah, simple times, don't they? Simple? Shall we move on? 

Simon Minty  24:01  
I anyhow, I technically, I guess they've still got you this year to crack that 2025, oh, I suppose they have, yeah, so Sir Kier. You've heard it from us. We were expecting big things this year.

Announcer  24:18  
Thank you for listening to The Way We Roll with Simon Minty and Phil Friend. If you enjoy the show, don't forget to subscribe, rate and share. 

Simon Minty  24:25  
Next story is you. You read about Barclays and simulating disability. 

Phil Friend  24:32  
You wonder what the country is coming to, don't you? Really? No, I credit Gavin Neat for this. Gavin is a chap who's very interested in access for people and does things to invents things that make access easier, the electronic door, opening devices, all that kind of thing. Anyway, Gavin Neat posted on LinkedIn, a little piece about Barclays talking about wanting to improve services absolutely and for disabled customers. Particularly, and what they were doing was employing ipso, well known kind of surveying organization. People, surveying organization market research. You know those people market research people to find out. You know how Barclays did in this space. We used to call this and still do mystery shopping, yeah. But the plan was that what they would do was they would employ non disabled people to pretend to be deaf or blind and then go in and and ask staff questions or try and get services. Ah, I just I, I read this, and I thought, for goodness sake, this went out in the 90s, and they were going to pay them 40 quid or something for their time. And down the road, you've got my old organization, the research institute for disabled customers, with 5000 disabled people on their books, just crying out for helping organizations like Barclays, but no, let's employ a few non disabled people to do this work. So that that was, that's what caught my eye. Your view? Mister Minty, what's your view? 

Simon Minty  24:35  
 I'm going to flip flop between agreeing and being what's the word contary for this purposes Agent Provocateur, exactly. So to clarify, when you told me like that, that sounds very different to what I actually was ipso were doing market research around disabled Barclays customers. Full stop, yeah. Then they said, Oh, hang on. We just realized. What about those who might have a disability, if they're sight loss? It was an afterthought, yeah, well, I don't, they did after but it sounds the way, they didn't say, we need to do a separate thing. It was like, Oh, it why don't a few of you pretend to be blind or have spots in your eyes or, you know, lack of hearing. So a few of you could try that out. That would be really helpful. So it wasn't them saying, let's go and get a load of non disabled to do disability research. It was not disabled research. Oh, why didn't we include some disability a bit like life chances? 2025, more inclusion. So, so. And by the way, I'm not defending them. It's weird that they I can commend them together. Go, Oh, my God, we haven't done disabled people where they've monumentally screwed up. It's going, Oh, it doesn't matter. We'll get anyone to pretend that's the real fundamental. When you say it's should have gone out in the 90s, I don't think it's ever gone 

Phil Friend  27:32  
well. I think nothing about us without us. Do you remember that fabulous slogan, yes, that hasn't gone away. And I think a lot of organizations going back to the previous conversation about how things change, and your point about public profile and disabled people being more around, and all of that that has changed, that disabled people now are in some ways less likely to be ignored. I'm not saying they aren't, because I know they are, of course, but for Barclays, who've done a lot of work in this space over the last 20 years, have gained a reputation for not being bad at this stuff. Have suddenly gone either they need to kick ipso out because they were wrongly advised by them, or they get better at deciding what the tender looks like when they put this out, you know, for bidding. 

Simon Minty  28:29  
And in the tender, we say we want a cross section of society. We want you to include disabled people within this exactly. Go and find them that I totally agree. So either it was an afterthought or it was never put in in the first place. I've got a couple of follow up points. One is when you told me recently, I thought this was and we know disabled people who do this, they've got these suits that you can get in that are heavy, or they just get the moment, then you got MS for the day, or arthritis for the day. Um, I did think if anyone goes on their knees so they can simulate short, small stature, there is one good thing, which would mean I could reach them to punch them on the nose for being so stupid, um, but um, we know disabled disabled people do this. We feel it's misguided. Um, occasionally I remember you and I having a debate. I think it was around coach drivers or occupational therapists that sometimes this could be useful. And what we're saying is, if someone's job is directly involved, do they need to understand what it's like to be a wheelchair user, to put suitcase underneath a coach and they don't get it until they've done it. But that is not having your chief exec get in a wheelchair for a day and wander around and go, Oh, this is amazing in there. I didn't realize it's gonna be so hard to so is there. Sometimes this is a good idea, is what I'm asking.

Phil Friend  29:49  
 I think, I think that it, I mean, I'm I can remember when you and I worked together, that we did from time to time under slight I can remember doing it with i. Facilities managers, I can remember specifically running a course for facilities managers, where, as part of that, we gave them exercises to go. We asked them to use, use the building, but they had to go say to the canteen, take a cup of tea from the dispensing machine and bring it back to us, but they had to do it wearing glasses that simulated a certain thing, or they were in a wheelchair, or whatever it was that we were not simulating disability. We were simulating the journey that a disabled person would make to get a cup of tea. And was it accessible? Was it safe? Was it possible? Even now? One of the spin offs of exercise was people said, oh, it's really quite difficult in a wheelchair in this building. Well, what you're going to do about it? Then? That was the whole point of the exercise. It wasn't about, oh, being in a wheelchair is, you know, I couldn't cope if I couldn't, that's not what it was about. But you're right. It was very limited to specific roles,

Simon Minty  31:07  
 the way you just described that. I would be slightly pedantic and going to go, that's what Barcleys would say. It is the customer coming in, trying it out, seeing what that journey is like. What are we going to do about it if I was to change one thing, and I can't work out, we don't know you were supervising that, presumably, 

Phil Friend  31:26  
yes, debriefing, yeah, and setting it up and debriefing. 

Simon Minty  31:30  
It wasn't a non disabled person saying, Hey, everybody, squint your eyes for a little bit and see if you can read that form. Give us some feedback. It was way more structured, 

Phil Friend  31:41  
and it sat as part of and overall, obviously we you and I never ran any course that didn't mention the social model at some point. And and talk about why that was an important we talked about all sorts of other things in that course, but one of the specific exercises where it was appropriate, like for facilities managers, is your building as good as it could be? And let's find out by getting you to go around it, where we remove your ability to do something, we are not simulating blindness. What we're saying is, if you couldn't see, how would you use that machine, and what could you do to improve it? So it was a kind of, I'm aware that we were on, you know, tightrope, but they had to, we debriefed. The whole exercise took probably about three or four hours, because we debriefed for a long period. Afterwards, it was the whole afternoon was spent. The journeys they made took five minutes.

Simon Minty  32:41  
 It's interesting, because when you I would be I'd push back and kind of go, you were simulating blindness. What you're saying is the wraparound was different, yeah, completely. 

Phil Friend  32:52  
Because if you give me funny glasses and say to me, go around and do something, I I, what I do is I tell you that I couldn't do it, and it was awful, and I it was, I couldn't cope with it to be like that. Yeah, and that's not what we were asking them to do. We were saying, get a cup of coffee. 

Simon Minty  33:08  
Follow up. Because when we think about disability, we talk about attitudes, but we also talk about the environment. And that's this simulation is about the environment for me, but I is, is simulation, our similarity to something like black face, is, is that the worry, isn't it? Is that why we get so up in arms that we're like, this is offensive to us? 

Phil Friend  33:34  
Yeah, I think that's I think that's right. And I think that listeners will take from this conversation what they will I think, where we applied it in the training sense, it was about trying to help people understand that they had a so I've always taken the view that facilities managers, team leaders, people who run, you know, manage other human beings, some of whom are disabled. Human beings have the responsibility for removing the barriers we as the disabled people will point out what they are. We will say what we think the solutions might be, but it's for the team leaders and the people with some authority to then say, Okay, we're going to change the coffee machine because certain staff can't use them in the training environment. What you're saying is, you are the team leader. And this is the these go and find out what how difficult it is to use this building if you weren't say, able to walk properly. 

Simon Minty  34:34  
And so the distinction being, I when if someone does black face, either they just say, will advise it. It's a fancy dress. I don't know if people would do that to then go out and feel what it's like to have racist comments or be ignored. 

Phil Friend  34:47  
Well, there were shows weren't there where they did actually make people up to look like Asian women and so on, the whole thing. And they lived with the family, and they it was, I can't, I'll get this wrong. But the TV show was, it was a documentary, really, about what it was like, and they did use white people to do it. 

Simon Minty  35:09  
So my bit is, if they I haven't seen them doing but they may well have done it. But the argument, in this sense, is about attitudes, and also it's not living it. I have seen where men dress up as women and then get sexually harassed or say no, and then they finally remember they're a man, and the man just goes, but listen, but disability, the argument of any of this simulation is it's not about the attitude, it's about this environmental impact versus someone's impairment. Um, by the way, it sounds like I'm justifying it. I'm not. I'm just trying to work out the distinction between dressing up to be like someone else, a protected characteristic, compared to if disability got an extra element. It's attitude with bark in that bit we're looking at this physical structure, the the rules, the regulations, the process, the paperwork, whatever it might be. 

Phil Friend  36:01  
I think the other distinction I would make, too was that we each in the training environment. People worked in pairs, and they were they were deaf, blind, wheelchair user, I think one was dexterity, not being able to use your hands, so you to, we put big gloves on, or something like that. They worked in pairs, and then they did the task, which was fairly short and not difficult. Then we spent time debriefing, but we debriefed to see the similarities and differences between the impairment groups. So if you were a blind person, did you have the same issues as someone who's deaf, for example, and if not, why not? And what were the differences? And what would you do about it? The whole point was, at the end of the exercise, there was an action plan we have discovered. And I think what it was was I, I see stairs everywhere, but somebody who doesn't sit in a wheelchair doesn't so switching on their antennae to the steps, that's all. It's not about feeling sorry for me, because I can't climb them or any of that stuff. It's I haven't noticed these things before. Now I do, and I'm and I'm in a position of authority to do something about it, if possible. That's the way I think I'm justifying it, but I it is a very fine line. I do think you have to use this with such care, 

Simon Minty  37:20  
because I could think Barclays  would argue exactly that we are experiencing it to find out. So we can do an action plan, they'll say the same, same point. What we're saying is, who set it up, who debriefed it, it? I mean, we take this with a Guardian that reported it as well as, yeah, no, it did feel like they were doing it, and then suddenly went, hang on, let's do some disability bits in there. Well intentioned as ever, but not very well executed, yeah, because there are actual, real disabled people who do that for you 

Phil Friend  37:53  
exactly, and are professional and know what they're looking for. 

Simon Minty  37:56  
And we'll give you the really informed choice, rather than blundering about if you suddenly can't put some glasses on, it's really difficult. Not if you've had 10 years of it, 

Phil Friend  38:06  
you've reminded me exactly that point you have. You've absolutely reminded me that one of the debrief things was to say very clearly that I, as a wheelchair user going to get a cup of coffee in your building will find it a lot easier than you will in your wheelchair, because I've been at it for years. So we can't simulate that. I can't give you the experience. And the classic was always a manual wheelchair getting hold of a door to pull it. And of course, the wheelchair went to the door and the door stays shut. Now I know how to deal with that problem. Yeah, very simple. But no, this building is totally inaccessible. Actually. No, it isn't. You just don't know how to use a wheelchair, that's the difference. But anyway, we digress. I think good try Barclays, but we're not sure you did it the right way.

Announcer  38:55  
This is The Way We Roll, presented by Simon Minty and Phil Friend.

Simon Minty  39:00  
We come to the final part of the show. I know I mean, loving it so far, by the way, we're now simulating our own disc. I'm pretending a wheelchair. Phil's trying to be short. We've really taken this on, haven't we? We have booked some amazing people coming up. I'm going to tell you who they are. When I say tell you, I mean both the listener and Phil, and then you can chip in  Well, some of them you'll know, and some of them you won't. I just think we should flesh it out a little bit. So at the end of February, our show will have Henry and Genevieve Smith. If you don't know them, they are based in Sydney, Australia. I've known them for 10 years or so. They've been making, uh, often corporate, but sometimes feature films and that they're in media, and they've always included lots of differently disabled people. I don't know if they have them themselves, but they I like the way they do this. They've always been really cool with it. They also forgive my clumsiness. Go. Go to more complex disabilities. Sometimes there's lots of actors they work with Down syndrome. They just do good stuff. And there's a really cool they, yeah, they came up with this concept. It's only realized we've been doing this for so long. If you make something, how do you know you are inclusively making it? And what they basically did was from, they've come up with a program from when you start. So you're come up with an idea. You're going through casting, you're trying to get the script right, all of that stuff to production, to edit, to putting it distribution. How? So I'm an independent production company. I want to be inclusive. They come up with a program so you can make sure that you do it right. It's called inclusively made. It's almost like a kite mark or a rubber stamp or a benchmark. I don't know. I really like the idea of this. 

Phil Friend  40:48  
Well, it sounds like we, you know, a they'll be very interesting. I'd be very interested to know how they do that. But also, it's a useful for listeners to know that these things are possible. You know, is possible to do these things, if you think of it like that, 

Simon Minty  41:02  
and at the risk of doing the whole podcast without them, the bit I like also is, I think lots of Indies and television pick up companies. We don't talk on BBC or ITV or Channel 4, whatever we're talking the small ones, they want to do it, but they don't know how to do it. Yeah, that's right. And this we shown how in the March our show, we will have Christina and Kiki from Euans Guide.  Their annual report is due Exactly. Well, first of all, my more serious bit, we lost Euan McDonald last year, who set up Euan's Guide. The bit was like the event I went to. You know when they do those in memoriam and they talk about people with loss, and he was always up there. But Euans guide continues, and they do a big annual survey about accessibility and places where it goes. So we'll be hearing what their research is. There was the Power 100 which we talked about, 

Phil Friend  41:30  
we did, we did.

Simon Minty  41:59  
 I told you about the winner. Her name's Celia Chartres Harris, and she's coming on the show. It'll be the end of May, when that comes out. I'm very excited about that. 

Phil Friend  42:10  
Tell us a bit more about her. What do you know? It's not a name I know, other than she won the yes power 100 

Simon Minty  42:19  
we talked about her in the last show where I sort of gushed about her talk, her acceptance speech was, the law is a fundamental thing for us as disabled people.

Phil Friend  42:29  
 I thought she was a lawyer, and you corrected me. She wasn't it. 

Simon Minty  42:32  
Yeah, don't remember the negative bits, Phil, remember the positives she I just like the cut of her jib. I think she's a, you know, excuse, my pun, I want to say a force of nature. I am. She has multiple non visible impairments, and she's just working internationally about whether it's a government, whether it's NGOs, pushing the disability agenda to get the law stronger, tighter, better, wherever it may well be. I think she's going to be a smart cookie as well. And she won. She's the most powerful disabled type 

Phil Friend  43:10  
on the planet, yeah, yes, well, in the UK, yeah. Okay. 

Simon Minty  43:14  
We will also have number two, which is Victoria Jenkins. She came second, and she does unhidden the clothing range. Yes, is about to go live in Primark. 

Phil Friend  43:28  
Did we not sit on a panel with we did Victoria, you chaired us? Didn't you did very, Sparky, very, very interesting young woman

Simon Minty  43:38  
And normally we don't talk about age, but it was lovely, because you were meant to be the the old bloke, lots of experience. Yeah, I was meant to be the middle, and she was the young one, and she said, I'm nearly 40. Yes, that's right. Um, but she's,

Phil Friend  43:53  
she's a pioneer, isn't she? She's doing some really interesting stuff, fashion and clothing. 

Simon Minty  43:58  
Yeah, she's formidable and Unhidden is really popular, and this Primart thing is meant to be going live in 99 stores around the country, around the world, which is phenomenal. So it'd be interesting to hear how she's sort of, how she's getting on, and the impact that she's making. 

Phil Friend  44:15  
Yeah, look forward to that, seeing her again, cracking lineup. 

Simon Minty  44:20  
Uh, by the way, we are always open to ideas. We try and make it every other show that we'll have guests, and if you know of anybody, or there's a topic you want us to talk about, just let us know. 

Phil Friend  44:30  
Or you want to come on. You might have a story of your own that you think we should tell. 

Simon Minty  44:35  
Don't encourage that. Phil, don't think that's a good idea. On one have all sorts rocking up. Maybe something interesting. There'll be someone from ipso. I want to be disabled for a day. 

Phil Friend  44:47  
Yes, you will have to pass a very high bar to get on this show. We would want you to prove we'll you'll have a pip form to fill out. We'll carry out a full assessmen that sounds good that does being serious. That sounds like a very good lineup, nice mix of people doing different things. And, yeah, be good, be interesting. 

Simon Minty  45:10  
And I know we give the perception of being completely unprofessional, but look at that. We've already planned first six months. Yeah. 

Phil Friend  45:16  
Well, you have, I have to say I am completely unprofessional. Without you doing it, it wouldn't have happened, would it? 

Simon Minty  45:20  
Well, that's very kind of, actually, yes, all four of those. Yes. And I say,who do you wt and you say I don't know. 

Phil Friend  45:32  
I think I'm not rubbing shoulders quite in the way I did that you do still. So I bow to your better connections 

Simon Minty  45:40  
as a last I did ask you, a moment ago, any new year's resolutions. 

Phil Friend  45:46  
Yes, just the one not to make any new year's resolutions. 

Simon Minty  45:51  
Oh stop it. 

Phil Friend  45:52  
I can hear Dave Reese, my old stamping ground mate at Lloyds Bank, when we did our personal development programs. And he always used to say about resolutions of any kind are very easy to make and very difficult to maintain. I always remember him saying it, I suppose what I would say, perhaps a little more seriously, is if you have made a New Year's resolution, the only way it will happen is if you turn it into a habit. Oh yeah, you see now that I give you that for free. That's what you get on this podcast, life changing, powerful moments like that. 

Simon Minty  46:33  
It's a little Instagram moment with resolutions. Make it a habit, your life will change. 

Phil Friend  46:38  
But actually, it's true. You know, I clean my teeth every day. I don't need a to do list. Tell me to do that. I do it every day because it's a habit. And so I don't need to say, and, you know, I'm going to my New Year's resolution is, clean my teeth. 

Simon Minty  46:52  
I don't have made any myself. I agree in the sense, when if say it's like, November, December. You're like, Oh, I must start a diet. I must go to the gym. Yes, that will be my new year's resolution. I like the idea. We go, no, no, do that. Now. What do you Why are you waiting for this sort of artificial thing? So just if you're going to do something, do it whenever you want to start it. I will. I do see something about reset, though. I do think there's something psychologically I noticed when Christmas happens, we all suddenly slow down. And then New Year comes and you're like, Okay, there's a there's an element of reset that year's done, we're going to move on to the new one. We started fresh. So I can see why people would get that. 

Phil Friend  47:35  
I get the reset. I mean, Sue yesterday spent quite a bit of time going through our pensions file. Oh yeah, there's a little snippet for you. This is what we do in our house. She went through the pensions file, and the items for 2003 went in the bin. I'm devastated by this piece of news. She's great. I just talk. We used to call it in the civil service, when you went through all the files we we used to call weeding them. You go through all the files and lift out stuff that was out of date and chuck it. So it's like resets people, I'm sure people go up into their lofts or attics, or into that junk room they've got, or that cupboard in the kitchen that's full of stuff, and you think, I must tidy that up. And New Year's sort of gives you that little bit of input to say, let's do it now, but yeah, work wise and so on. Yes, you the the old years done. What are we going to do in the new year? What are our objectives, personally or professionally or whatever? I get that. I get that

Simon Minty  48:31  
 I suspect our listeners news resolution is not to miss another The Way We Roll. 

Phil Friend  48:36  
Well, well, of course, how could they not? 

Simon Minty  48:40  
Well,  we should stop. 

Phil Friend  48:44  
I think we should. I think, well, let's wish everybody the very best for 2025 and hope they are able to do what they set out to do. That would be good. You can tell us what it is. We always want to hear from you. 

Simon Minty  48:57  
Yeah. I hope their life chances improve in 2025 just like disabled peoples. 

Phil Friend  49:02  
Yes, okay, see you soon. Simon, 

Simon Minty  49:07  
Cheers. Phil, all the best. Bye bye. Listener, 

Phil Friend  49:09  
bye bye.

Announcer  49:10  
This is The Way We Roll, presented by Simon Minty and Phil Friend. You can email us at mintyandfriend@gmail.com or just search for minty and friend on social media, we're on Facebook, Twitter and LinkedIn. You.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai