From Berlin to Malaga Part 1:

Global Disability Summit 2025, Berlin

This month, we’re splitting the show into two parts. First up, Simon recently attended the 3rd Global Disability Summit in Berlin. Simon found himself out of the loop, having not attended an event like this for a decade. As is often the case with huge multi-national conferences, they are overwhelming at times, brilliant for meeting people, and have fantastic speakers, but not so good ones. They highlight what needs to be done to progress disability inclusion and where different countries and regions are currently. Simon gives us the highs and lows, whilst Phil wonders what might be done to improve things.

We shall send you part two in two weeks, which features Phil’s trip to Malaga. 

https://www.globaldisabilitysummit.org/

https://www.disabilitydebrief.org/debrief/gds2025/?ref=disability-debrief-newsletter

Transcript

Announcer  0:10  
This is the way we roll, presented by Simon Minty and Phil Friend. You can email us at minty and friend@gmail.com or just search for minty and friend on social media. We're on Facebook, Twitter and LinkedIn.

Simon Minty  0:29  
Hello and welcome to The Way We Roll with me, Simon, Minty 

Phil Friend  0:33  
And me Phil Friend. 

Simon Minty  0:35  
An apology, dear listener, I know last month you were probably devastated because we didn't put a show out. What do you mean? You didn't know? 

Phil Friend  0:44  
Our inbox has been inundated. I spent the whole month, nearly six weeks, responding, yeah, it's been unbelievable.

Simon Minty  0:53  
It was something that came up for me, a family thing, and I couldn't get out of it. And so Phil very kindly agreed, and we think it's the first time in nine years.

Phil Friend  1:03  
Can't think of it now, the occasion where we didn't have a monthly pod,

Simon Minty  1:08  
it is lovely to be back. Um, I've got a feeling this is going to be a pretty difficult, heavy, moany, wingy.

Phil Friend  1:20  
We haven't moaned and whinged for two months. Yeah. So, you know, let's get it on. What's happened? I mean, not a lot's gone on in the time we've not been recording. So I'm gonna say the world as much as we left it.

Simon Minty  1:30  
yeah, very, very quiet. Talking of the world. I went to the Global Disability Summit, which was in Berlin in the sort of first week of April, and I went, those who listen a lot, we had guests on late last year, Peter Torres Fr emlin, Susan Scott Parker, both in the international development field, they were talking about it. And I thought, You know what? I haven't done one of these for a long, long time. I don't know and what I mean by one of these, it's only been three of these Global Disability summits, but I meant the big international gig where you go and hang out. I sure don't know Tom Shakespeare was there, by the way, Phil

Phil Friend  2:13  
Tommy. Tommy shakes as he's known, isn't he? He

Simon Minty  2:17  
was on Twitter or X, he's not on them anymore, but I think he's blue sky. I will come to him and be later on. But I bumped into him, and he said, What are you doing here? And I said, I don't know, really. And at times I did anyway, do you did you go to big international gigs in your day? Phil,

Phil Friend  2:34  
I did. And you've prompted me, this is what I would say about them. I remember two specifically. One of them was one of the first things I ever went to as a disability kind of personage back in the late 80s, early 90s. And it was a disability conference hosted by Shelter. And back then, the director of S helter, I believe was Sheila, Sheila McKechnie, who was an absolute legend. I hope I've got her name right, absolute legend. She left Shelter eventually and went to Which the Consumers Association, and then very sadly, died not long after, because she got some awful illness. But I remember that conference, and here's the thing, I remember, nothing about the event. I don't remember who spoke. I don't remember what it was about. I don't remember who said anything. None of it. Now, admit it was a very long time ago, but I tell you what I do remember all the networking. I met lots of people, and I hung out with them, and I I did all the social model, kicking it back and saying why it was rubbish. And they kicked back, and it was all the networking was unbelievable. The same in 1992 I went to Canada, global, international disability conference. Again. Don't remember anything about the formal stuff, but I remember the people I met. One classic story. We're all Peter Torres Fremlin would love it. We were sat together a group of Canadians and myself, talking about the world, and this Indian woman in a wooden wheelchair joined us, and we were saying, Well, why don't use a power chair? Because that is so much more difficult to push around. Taking her about three weeks to get to get to this conference, by the way, because she traveled over land, mainly, she said, Well, where would I charge it? In my village, we don't have electricity. And I've always, I've always remembered that comment. And what strikes me, Simon, I don't know how it was for you in Berlin, but what strikes me is that the conference itself is a talking shop where I don't know what goes on really, but not much changes. But the networking, the friendships you make, the people you contact make contact with, I think, was incredibly valuable. So from that point of view, I think they're a good thing.

Simon Minty  2:57  
Berlin is the same we've done it. Let's move on to the next topic. I mean, it sounds like not much has changed. I mean, there's a few extras I'd add in

Phil Friend  5:07  
there. Sad, though, isn't it? Don't you think that's sad,

Simon Minty  5:10  
 but is it not  This is what international development, these big old summits, that's what they are. And if you go along thinking you're going to learn something, something something that's going to change whatever. I mean, they had pre, three pre summits where all the stuff was agreed.

Phil Friend  5:29  
Um, but you weren't at those presumably,

Simon Minty  5:32  
Absolutely and you go to the different panels now, there were some really good panels, and there's some really good speakers. However, I also went to probably a slight more amount where it's that classic bit, you get six speakers, and you say, so, tell us about AI, Assistive Technology and Disability in your country. And the person says, I have X disability. This has been my life. They speak for 15/20, minutes about not about the topic. They just tell you their life story, and then the two people at the end who've got a lot of experience of this topic, they go, Well, really sorry, I've got time. Could you just in 30 seconds sum up? Now that's an issue. That's an issue with moderation, and that's an issue with some speakers not being experienced about this and not knowing, you know, it's a bit of an ebb and flow, but I just gradually realized it is what it is where there was an app available, and the app is for you to make meetings and connections with people, right? That's what it is. So all you listen to all these people who are there, and it was, it's a bit like a dating app. It's saying these five people work in a similar field to you. Why don't you meet up with them while you're here? And here's my other point, and this is an ego thing more than anything, and it's an experience thing. I haven't done it for 10/12, years because I've always found myself a little bit frustrated. I go back in. I'm not a known entity. I'm a newbie, I'm, I'm an old newbie. And so there was the ambassador's reception, there was the private meetings here, there were the events over there, and I didn't go to any of them  because I wasn't invited to any of them. So I was a bit ego like, Oh, hello. But the flip side was, Simon, you have to work. You have to re network. Don't get me wrong, I bumped into six people. There was a woman, Denise, who I met in Moscow in 2002 haven't seen her for 20 years. Swaila, who is from Albania, bumped into her lovely time with her. I haven't seen her for 10 years. There was a bundle of and new people I met as well. But I wasn't I was not a mover and shaker. I was a a punter that went along. Was trying to absorb it, and I found it. There's 4000 people there, apparently. I mean, massive, massive, the organizers did a brilliant job. It worked really smoothly. Food was great for me, personally. Access was good. You know, there was some really good things, but it was,

Phil Friend  7:52  
I suppose. The question I'll ask on behalf of our listeners is, how much did it cost, and could it have been spent on something else? Uh,

Simon Minty  8:03  
do you mean, how much did it cost all of them to put it together? 

Phil Friend  8:06  
Yeah, the bill for that event, yeah, 4000 people is a lot of people, and that's brilliant, you know, but the cost would have been phenomenal. I'm guessing 

Simon Minty  8:18  
There is also another couple of questions, one which is, what about all the people didn't make it so I think it was a sort of 80 quid registration might be in 100 euros registration fee for me. And then the cost of the hotels, which was subsidized. There's free travel and a few, obviously you gotta get there. There's the sponsors were the Kingdom of Jordan, which always seemed to pop up around disability, the German government and the International Disability Alliance, which, if you listen to our podcast, not that long ago, got into some serious trouble. Yeah, yeah, not very well to talk about that, absolutely, yeah. And suddenly, you know, within a year or two, they're back being a big hitter here. And I was like, they've been forgiven very quickly. And there was a bit at the end where we had the aim was. So anyway, I don't know how much it would cost, and you're right. Say it cost 5 million euros. I don't know. Could it be spent elsewhere? I don't know. I do have problems with some of these NGOs, and you think these are people who've got jobs, they've been doing it a long time. I'm not sure what the impact is. It's the old, classic bit of a charity, how much of your income goes to the actual causes that you're trying to do? And if 60% is admin, you're not doing it right.

Phil Friend  9:38  
You could compare and contrast. Couldn't you say with climate change, you know, the big conferences that all the world comes to, and they spend two days, yeah, all flying, they do all their chatting, and they come away, and you think, we've got this, this proclamation, and then nothing happens. And that's the bit that I. Find the most galling. That's why I was saying about the networking side of it being really important. So maybe what we should do is just invite 4000 people, split them up into all sorts of different rooms via an app, and then say, right, you've got two days. Just have a chat.

Simon Minty  10:19  
Yeah. Wouldn't

Phil Friend  10:20  
you achieve as much as you do by having all this up. But this

Simon Minty  10:25  
is where the hierarchical setup kicks in, because if they've already had pre three pre summits, yeah, 100 people made all the decisions beforehand. They don't that's not what they want to do. That's giving it away. Or maybe they just think that's not practical, because we'll come up with so many ideas. There was Stephen Timms, the Minister of disabled people. There was the Chancellor of Germany. There was three or four members of the royal, Jordanian royal family. At the very end, there was this big old announcement, and the proclamation, if that's the right word, was as a disability group population. We as we represent 15% of the population. We want 15% of global international development money. That's what their argument was. And I'm like, okay, they and everyone was like, who signed up and let's cheer this and do that? And I'm like, I had two questions. One, okay, who's going to monitor that? Secondly, I didn't see anyone at any point. Say, three years ago, this is what we agreed. Let's have a chat about how we've got it seems to be a little bit. And there was a woman, it doesn't matter man or woman, oh, I, I'm presuming it's not disabled because of what she said. But this was the final panel, closing speeches, and she said, What a wonderful time. 15% 15% and you know what? Your people with special abilities, not disabilities? I'm not saying disability, your special abilities. And I'm like, plus change. It's unbelievable that you do all of that, and then you hear that I have a add on. I spoke to swala, who's from Albania. She's a leading disability rights person there, independent living, Swalia as a she's bright, yeah. And I said to her, I'm really struggling for what I call authenticity, for for real people saying real things on these stages. It's people who've got prepared speeches on behalf of their government organization, and they're not addressing the questions. And I don't know how engaged they are. They've been here for so long. It's just, it's there's no and also, they never react to what is going on. It is just all build out. And she said it is completely like that. She agreed with it, and she smiled. But she also said, Don't forget where we all are as different countries. And she said the UK and will have disabled listeners who will go the UK is not good about disability right now, and I can totally take on board that. She said, The UK is seen in the top three of all countries in terms of disability inclusion across the board, whatever level of measure you're looking at that. She said, You have a country that has had democracy for however long. You have law that is, for the best part, respected, and you have infrastructure, you have government, you have I mean, the list was as long, and it suddenly made me think, of course, I'm being a pompous one here. I forget all the advantages of where we start. We have a thriving disability arts scene. I mean, that's a big difference to where other places are and where they are on this journey. So whilst I'm like, oh geez, are you still saying this nonsense? That's because that might be where they're at right now.

Phil Friend  13:47  
Well, it sounds to me like Swaler. That's her name. Swalery it is. Yeah, was your Indian woman in a wooden wheelchair? You kind of bringing us down to earth with a bit of a bump. I think that's what I meant about being in those rooms. It's meeting people like her, absolutely, and getting a sense of the different perspectives. But you know, if you're poor in Britain, you're poor in Britain, it doesn't matter that Albania is a lot worse. Yeah, do you know what I mean? So I take a point, though, and it's well made that we are fortunate to come on 1948 the National Health Service. Why am I here? Because we had that no other reason. 

Simon Minty  14:30  
Didn't even mention that. I forgot that. I mean that that list of all these things that we take for granted, we assume that the base point where we are at is so much better in many ways, a couple other bits. One, I the information pack said the trains are accessible. And here's the journey from the airport to the hotel. And I thought, You know what it's about time I started using public transport a bit more. Oh, what a muppet. I was I was escorted out of the airport. I said, I would like to go to the train station. And she said, Here we are. I said, I don't have two tickets. I'll leave you to it. So I spent the first seven minutes feeling about 102 it was a touch screen, but it was one of those ones. You don't even have to touch it. It jumps. So I was all over the place. I had to work out what station I'm going to. How do I get the right ticket? Is it return? Eventually, some guy in a cap who works there came over, got me, then he said, Okay, you paper  sorted the ticket. The train was not accessible. It it was the steepest incline I've ever seen. It was like 45 degrees, and probably goes down about six foot. If I was in a manual wheelchair, I would have not done it. No, I've got electrnic brakes. It was fine. I got on the train, sat there, and it said, this train will depart in 45 minutes. What that took me to like the biggest station in Berlin, where there was five levels, and there's tubes and underground and the overground shops and everything. I'm whizzing around this time and time again trying to work out how to get onto the right tube. Eventually, I found the right platform. They said, wait in Section C, because that's where the wheelchair access will be. Um, the train pulled in.

Phil Friend  16:17  
I know what's coming 

Simon Minty  16:18  
Section D, yeah, of course it is. And this young Japanese couple said, can we help you on? And I was in scection C, I said, I don't think you can. No. And so the conductor called me up, and then he they throw down this ramp. The ramp is for a wheelchair. So he's got a big divot in the middle, a big hump. Yes, I've got a three wheeler. I've got a three wheeler. You that makes it really difficult to use. Somehow I got on this bloody tube. I got off the other end look at my maps to try and work out. And then I was, I was scooting along from the train the tube station to my hotel. It started to rain, and pushing my suitcase. I'm like, You're an idiot. Minty. You really are. The thing is, it cost me seven euros, which is great, yeah, instead of probably 70, and only two and a half hours of my life,

Phil Friend  17:13  
man, and you get to the conference and nobody's heard of you, you're treated like you Know, who is this bloke, lovely. Worst of all my nightmares is being in a foreign city where I know no one and I can't work anything out. It's stuff you wake up at three in the morning thinking about, 

Simon Minty  17:30  
I mean, you reminded me I was meant I went two days early because I was meeting friends who canceled on me the day I was going. So I had two days rattling around Berlin. I bumped into Peter. I was sitting outside a cafe having a bite to eat. I bumped into him, and he said, I'm going for some coffee with some friends. I said, I'd love to. So, yeah, he saved me. It

Phil Friend  17:50  
doesn't have help, doesn't it? There is a something about I do think it takes a being serious. I do think it takes a bit of I'm going to use the word courage, not disability related to turn up in a foreign city, not knowing quite how anything works, and go to a conference where, by and large, you don't know anybody, you can feel quite alone. Actually, you can feel quite sort of not vulnerable. That's not the word I would use, but lonely, or, god, it's all going on around me and I don't know what's happening, kind of thing. Here's

Simon Minty  18:21  
the classic example, and this is the point. I'm not in the loop. I The conference started on the Wednesday. I went past it on Tuesday, because I had these two days, and I thought I'd just have a look at the building get myself ready for the next day. As I went past, there was a couple of security people, and I said, Hello, and just having a look at the building, they went, you want to go in? I thought I thought, Oh, great. And I thought, Oh, this would be awesome. I'll have a little look around, get the feel of it for tomorrow. I went in. There were 2000 people there already. It was this massive, packed hall. And I went, Oh yeah, today civil society. I went, Oh, is it I mean, that I bumped into three people. I knew it was like, but, but you're right. Oh, every evening I would come back, and because I was not in the loop, I was like, This is tricky. Now I'm old enough, and I don't know what the word is, not wise, but secure enough to go.It doesn't matter  

Phil Friend  19:16  
your experience you've travelled an awful lot. 

Simon Minty  19:18  
And also, I was trying this out, that's my point. And I was knackered all the time. So it was never, I didn't beat myself up, but it was disappointed Absolutely. And I think in almost like a need to have a newbies group where, if you'd never been before, come along and you can all hang out. Maybe there was, I didn't

Phil Friend  19:38  
even I'll tell you what. Don't completely left field, really. I just think, for all that, for all the positives that those things have, and they have several, the outcomes seem to me to be a bit lacking. You know, we don't seem to move very far after one of these things. You. What's wrong with us thinking about a kind of more citizens jury approach, where you know you randomly but fairly, select people to be on the jury, and they spend a week together, and they have a whole battery of experts that come in and talk about the issues, and then the citizen jury come up with a plan, because that's how they work. I mean, you must know, obviously, about citizens juries. The there was a recent one on assisted suicide in Jersey, which came up with the idea that it should be legalized. So from my point of view, that's a, you know, it's not good news. But the approach was interesting. It allowed people to get our argument would always be how much bias there is one way or the other but, but I think citizens juries have they're talking about them a bit more in terms of local government and regional government. And the idea that you pull people together and say, This is the problem we've got. These are the ways we could approach that problem. What do you think? And then the jury kind of

Simon Minty  21:04  
does that work on a global scale? There's 80 different countries. 

Phil Friend  21:11  
Could you scale it up? I don't know. I don't know, but what we do know is that the present system doesn't seem to change a lot. So is there a way of reworking the model, I don't know. And

Simon Minty  21:21  
I think regionally, you might be able to do that as you maybe think of a couple of things. One is going to be a real negative, and then I'll try and make a bit more positive. And I don't have evidence for this, it's a feeling I think people will not like that, because you're messing with a structure that they have all bought into? Oh, sure, there's a hierarchy, there's a respect, there's a I'm getting paid by my NGO, and I want that, and I'm not giving that up for nobody. It would shake it up. I did meet somebody who I said, What do you do? And she works for an organization called ADD I don't know what it stands for. She said, We fund individual disability activists in different countries. And went, Oh, I like you interesting. Bearing in mind, I'm not very good with big organized NGO stuff. I have this resistance because I feel it's cumbersome and clunky and missing the boat and bloated and all those are things that I've my my prejudices with. And I thought, and I said, Oh my god, I'd have loved that when I was starting out. The idea that you fund individual agitators to go and do their stuff. This is awesome, but she said, It's tricky, because we're messing up the current setup. People don't quite what we're doing. You're meant to give your money to the big NGO or the whatever NGO that then decides where that goes, and we're going direct to source, and that's not always appreciated, but

Phil Friend  22:46  
there is that just picking you up on on that point, or not picking you up, but picking up that point, the disability movement started having been completely excluded. All the money was donated by non disabled people and the charities all that stuff, and we kicked that can into touch and said, no longer are you doing that? So why? Why is it not possible for, you know, those agitators that are being funded to kind of say, This isn't working. This is just a talking shop. Nothing's changing.

Simon Minty  23:21  
I'm sure they are. There was a German guy Roul. I'm his last name is in the disability debrief. He didn't go because he said this is pointless. There is plenty of detractors. I need to qualify a couple. There'll be brilliant people in that place and brilliant people, of course, of course, it's me being there, Simon, yeah, but I wasn't there in many ways. I was just floating around. Will you be my friend? I so I think there are mates, but it's the back of the big old institution. They've got their vested interests all that sort of stuff. And with the IDA, as we said two years ago, absolutely shocking, and yet, two years later, they are now the number one name on the Global Disability Summit. Yeah, I have, I did do a talk, by the way, it was about employment in the private sector, and this is with Susan Scott Parker, and she was launching a Kenyan Business Disability Forum. And I talked a bit about my experiences. I also said, If we only stick to NGOs and public sector, that could be 20, 30% of the employment base. There's 70% 80% in the UK is private sector. If we are disabled people that want to have jobs, we need to be open to work in lots of different places, as do the employers. Secondly, all the NGOs, our meetings. Every want more money. Businesses have money. Secondly, NGOs, we've learned, if it's not working, we change path. And I'm like, businesses have been doing that for years. It's, it's what's this resistance to it? But they are, they think businesses is the enemy. I am very happy there. Someone came up to me after and said, yours was the. The best session. They went, Oh, thank you. Why is that? She went, you didn't bullshit. Everything else was bullshit. And like, oh my god, it that's the lack of the way you and I and many others talk, which is a bit more direct. There is a language that people use in these sort of circles that it's quite hard to grab. I'm being

Phil Friend  25:17  
I'm being a light and a bit waffly, and it's a bit, yeah, well, I go in more than that. I think your cards marked Minty. I think next year, you'll be on that big platform.

Simon Minty  25:28  
It's not polite and waffly. It's more insidious than that. It's, it's a, it's a brushing aside. It's a brushing over. It's not quite engaged. I mean, I know I'm being very negative and I'm being disingenuous to all the brilliant people and and the glacial change that slowly happens, but it there's a there's a system, and I struggle with that system. Peter, I didn't see for two days of the conference, and he said, you won't see me anything, because all I'm doing is having Back Room meetings. And that's what you do.

Phil Friend  26:01  
That's the point. That's what I was meaning. Yeah, exactly, yeah. I mean, you, you know Peter and his little group and debrief, the newsletter he publishes, and the connections he has, they are a little movement in themselves, and they are slowly chipping away without all this global summit stuff, he's just but what he's getting, I guess I'm to can't speak for Peter, for goodness sake, but there's a kind of re energizing at those things where you meet people, absolutely, who are struggling like you are, or have come up with some really interesting ideas about how to do that differently. That's what I want. I don't care. That's a bit unfair, because you rightly say there are some people on the main platforms Who are we ought to listen to. But the the real work, and I think this is true for government, isn't it? It's what goes on in the bar. Yeah, rather, well, bloody house of the House floor. I mean,

Simon Minty  26:51  
there is, we'll, we'll have our guest next month who talks about, you've got to have law there was huge. I mean, we forget the UN convention on the rights of people, disabled people. It is nice to have in the UK, but it's not critical in other countries, this is massive. There were people like, what's your favorite article in the UN CRPD? And I'm like, Hello. I need to learn a bit more here.

Phil Friend  27:15  
But un what? What was that? Equally,

Simon Minty  27:17  
it is pointless having your country, sign up to it without anybody that then enforces it. Yeah, absolutely. It's a meaningless bit of paper without some form of enforcement. Do you want to do it and hear from Tom Shakespeare?

Phil Friend  27:32  
Why not Tommy? A secret guest, I

Simon Minty  27:36  
asked Tom. Tom is huge in this field and very good in this field. And I said to him, could you just give me 30 seconds, sort of a point about what you got from the conference? And he very kindly did. So I'm going to press play and see if this works. 

Tom Shakespeare  27:52  
It's great to see friends and colleagues at the Global Disability summit, but I thought the elephant in the room was Trump and the end of USA ID, because, because there's less money, there are several major wars, and there's increased defense, and therefore there'll be less money for International Development. So I'm afraid disabled people will lose out. 

Simon Minty  28:23  
I'm glad I went and I'm I'm glad in many ways that these things exist, because there's a lot of good stuff. Just because I wasn't in the loop or in the right rooms does not mean to say this isn't a good thing. I know I struggled a bit, and I do struggle overall with some of these things, but and I, but I still applaud the organizers, the moderators, everybody who put blood, sweat and tears into making that happen. It was really, really quite something. And there was a bit at the end the closing ceremony, there was some Jordanian folk music that started, and some Jordanian people next to me started dancing, and then some other people who were not Jordanian came over, and there was this joyous moment of not disabled, disabled, different nationalities, dancing, laughing, cheering. And that isn't changing the world in itself, but those are the moments where I kind of go, You know what? Us just getting together and hanging out can be a really, really powerful thing in itself. So I

Phil Friend  29:21  
suspect that many people that were there and went away with their batteries recharged and ready to take up the cudgels yet again. And I think they serve that purpose. You're with people. It's like you, we've you've said when you go on your small people's conferences, you kind of come away renewed, and you've spent time with your people kind of thing. And there's something to be said for that. There really is.

Simon Minty  29:47  
It's a skill set as well. The fact that I may not have the skill set to work in that field is perfectly fine. You know, you work in the thing that you like and get exactly negative, exactly you've carved

Phil Friend  29:58  
out your career doing this. Stuff, and if that helps Albania five years down the track, well, good luck, you know. Thank you

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