The Way We Roll
A seriously funny take on life from the disability driven duo... Simon Minty and Phil Friend.
The Way We Roll
I Will Try…To Fix You: Benevolent Bias, Coldplay live and surgery
In case it’s a new term to you, let us start with a definition of Benevolent Bias in relation to disability. The Wiley Dictionary says “usually manifests as pity or charity, paternalistic protection, and condescending or exaggerated praise for common activities.” A new term perhaps, but not a new behaviour. We discuss.
Coldplay came to Wembley in August and we went to see them. We discuss the show and comment on accessibility, attending gigs as a wheelchair user and scooter user.
Phil gives us a health update after surgeons have been poking around, and just how unsettling this can be when you’re older.
Finally, we respond to the emails we have received from you recently and give you a preview of next month’s show.
Links
Vitruvi - The Problem With Benevolent Ableism
Wembley Stadium and disability access
Announcer 0:00
Phil, this is The Way We Roll, presented by Simon minty and Phil. Friend. You can email us at mintyand friend@gmail.com or just search for minty and friend on social media. We're on Facebook, Twitter and LinkedIn.
Simon Minty 0:30
Hello and welcome to The Way We Roll with me. Simon Minty
Phil Friend 0:33
and me, Phil Friend,
Simon Minty 0:34
let's get straight into it. And I came across a phrase recently, Phil called benevolent bias, or benevolent discrimination. I just, I just wondered if you could come across this.
Phil Friend 0:48
Well, I haven't, which means I'm clearly very out of date. And also, even if I had had heard of it, I'm not sure I'd get the definition of what it means, right. Benevolence is all that giving and being charitable and all that kind of stuff. Can't quite see the bias bit, but I'm feeling that it's about disabled, being people being patronized yet again in some way.
Simon Minty 1:09
Yeah, I mean, you bang on. And I can't remember I was, and I feel very naughty because, you know, I like to credit my sources, but I was somewhere, and I heard this pop up as a phrase, and I thought, oh, blimey, I've not come across that so and I looked, looked it up, and it is pretty much what you said, benevolent bias. Benevolent discrimination is against disabled people. It involves well intentioned but harmful behaviors like pity, unsolicited help, infantilization, oh yeah, exaggerated praise, all stemming from misguided beliefs about disabled individuals capability and autonomy. While seemingly positive, this form of discrimination is a manifestation of ableism, treating people as less capable, contributing to object, objectification and dehumanization by reducing their identities to their disability. Could you just repeat that back?
Phil Friend 2:09
Well, I mean, we've talked about this, haven't we? The certainly, the charity pity stuff is what we've talked about. And I get that that so somebody's kind of given it a bit of a label, benevolent bias. Benevolence bias,
Simon Minty 2:24
when I read it, I went, Oh, okay, new term, same old principle, yeah, but it did make me think, and it is for me, an immensely frustrating area of treatment. And I, when I do my training, they come, I mean, I probably got a dozen of them. And it happens all the time, and it will be, I mean, what's that classic, someone opens the door for you. You go through in your wheelchair on your scooter, and they go, Oh, don't get a speeding ticket. You're like, oh, you nob, um. Or I remember being in New York, and I was waiting to cross the road on my scooter, and a woman looked down at me and went, Oh, it's brilliant, isn't it? And I went, What's that? Then I was looking around, there's something that's brilliant. And she went, you know, you being out and about. And I went, Oh, how lovely. I said, I've gotta buy some food. I have to eat. It was, it's, it's that. I mean, do you get that as a elder statesman, wheelchair user. Do you get these moments?
Phil Friend 3:24
It gets a bit confusing when you get to my age, because what I'm getting is ageism, yes, which is similar. There is a similarity. It's a bit hard to disentangle disability from the fact that I'm an old chap now, but there is a way in which people of my age are treated as if we've, we're less than now we don't have a lot to contribute. I mean, I, I've, they, nobody would ever get away with doing this to me, but the idea that you go to a function, a party or something, and you're kind of parked in the corner, out the way. And sometimes that's fair, because wheelchair takes up a little room and all that stuff, but you're sitting there, and then people sort of notice you at some point and think, Oh, poor sod I need to talk to him, and they come across and have some meaningless conversation. Do you know what I mean? It's it's not, it's on the one level, it's nice that they want to include you on another, it kind of makes you feel, well, the next steps, the home, then is it?
Simon Minty 4:33
Yeah, I do get that as in. But there's also an interesting bit, depending on whether you're in favor. We used to go to meetings together, habit. Now, because the profile you have a cure, people wanting to talk to us, we are popular and interesting, but then you go somewhere else and they don't know you, or not interested in disability or whatever, and then you're and also random people don't know whether to talk. I guess that's not just disability, but. Whether there's an extra element.
Phil Friend 5:01
I think this comes up a bit for you, doesn't it with your gogglebox thing, because the fame I've seen this happening when I'm out with you will come to Coldplay concert later, but people stop and say, oh, you know, and they talk to you, and there's a kind and it's hard to distinguish whether that conversation, as you've said several times before, whether they're doing this because you're a small person, or whether you're doing it because you're on Goggle box. Clearly they're doing it because you're on Goggle box. When they stop you and ask for a photo and stuff. In my case, I can't disentangle Is this a disability thing or is it an aging thing? But it's either way, it doesn't make much odds. It's not nice.
Simon Minty 5:41
I'm trying to think, because there is an occasion, though, we have to be really careful. And let me try and put this in context, and then say, I go somewhere and I'm in the supermarket, and the member of staff is treating me overly over the top, and maybe they're calling me sweetheart and being really overly kind and general and all that stuff. Now, in my head, there could be three reasons. There is a tiny little bit of it. Oh, they quite like me. They fancy me. That could be one. That could be 5%
Phil Friend 6:11
that's your default, isn't it? That's your default, especially for a woman, yeah, naive,
Simon Minty 6:16
overconfidence. Then there's the big chunk, which is, is is there this benevolent ableism or benevolent discrimination? There? They're patronizing, they're helpful, but they're actually overdoing it, and they're really becoming a bit schmaltzy or irritating. And then there's this last bit, because people do use Terms of Endearment, and that's just the way they are. And you kind of go, so you have to this fine line of which way are they coming from. And I mean, I guess our antenna is smart enough now that we can tell if someone's patronizing as distinct from, I don't know, it's been really helpful or maybe been a bit clumsy and a bit awkward, I don't know, but every now and again, we could misjudge it. Maybe nine times out of a 10. We know where they're coming from.
Phil Friend 7:03
The other the other slight angle to that, of course, is that that's how they behave with everybody. That's my point in a shop, for example. I mean, I remember famously the suits you sketch on. What was it? The fast show with the two men measuring men up for suits and getting very lewd and very badly behaved, but their whole gushing approach to selling suits was, it's a bit like that. And if you So, if they're that, they're just bad sales people, if they're doing that. But if you're right, I think what is we are very sensitive, as I suspect many women are very sensitive to men who use the same sort of stuff with them, and it comes up as very patronizing and degrading and whatever else, we may be wrong occasionally, but my sense tells me that most of the time I'm not,
Simon Minty 7:56
yeah, and also I'm almost making it our fault that we're judging people for being idiots and and sometimes we need to judge because they've been really patronizing our what's its
Phil Friend 8:11
I suppose, at the end of the day, it's the behavior, isn't it? In a sense, it doesn't matter why they're doing it. It's being received by you or me as wrong or bad or whatever. So please stop doing it. It doesn't matter why you're doing it. I don't like it. So is it because I'm older? Is it because I'm in a wheelchair? Is it because they they don't they like people with mustaches? I mean, I don't know, but the the what's landing with me is not making me feel comfortable. And I think I have therefore the right to then say to them, can you stop doing that, and can you stop behaving like that? Do we do that? No, we just kind of carry on, don't we mostly?
Simon Minty 8:50
Well, also, I've realized, and it doesn't make me sound great, but so I'm highly patronized. Infantile is going on. And really what I want to do is give him a mouthful in the back. I also want to say, Listen, these are all the things that I do in my life. This is my career. This is the things I'm involved in. These are my trips. These are my family. These are my but. And I almost want to justify it to kind of go, you're treating me like a seven year old. You've got no idea. I advise certain areas and and it's almost like you need to give them a piece of paper and go Stop your nonsense. This is my reality. Where am I going with this is it? I don't have the energy to correct everybody, but it annoys me that people do this.
Phil Friend 9:42
Perhaps you need to print off 1000 flyers, yeah, which has your CV on it or something. And every time it happens, you hand them one.
Simon Minty 9:52
And I agree, and that's my point. But then I kind of feel i i. I know what it is. I end up pitying them. I'm like, You're so blinkered or unlearned or had a very limited life that you that's what you treat me like. And if that's how you think that's the right thing, It's you who've really got nothing going on. I don't need to explain myself to you. I just occasionally the ones who are actually quite genuine and they're just making a mistake, or they're just a very I mean, maybe what we've got to do is, when we feel it and it happens to us, hang around for a minute and watch what they're like with the next person. Yeah, and if they do this gush again, they're like, Okay, they're just a bit of a weird one. I don't know. I don't know. It's in a really irritating thing.
Phil Friend 10:42
It's back to the stuff of oh God, can I be bothered to just, you know, every person does this, I suppose, if it's a one off, are you going to a shop or a pub or something in club, whatever it is, and it happens to you with an individual, that's one thing. If this is happening to you, say, at work, on a daily basis, then you've got a very different ball game, haven't you? And it's not excusing the first but it means the second one. You have to find ways of tackling. And I think our PDP courses, those kinds of things, help disabled people find ways of bringing this to the Speaker's attention and saying this is not acceptable.
Simon Minty 11:22
Well, and you it's weird. We're thinking ahead of each other on this one. I also can see this isn't just about being patronized. This could be really damaging once your mental health, but more your career. If people see you in a certain way, they see the disability they and that's the only bit they can't get beyond. Or they patronize you. It's it's an interesting one. When I think about some of the boards that I'm on, I think there'll be certain boards would never even dream of having someone like me. I don't mean to judge them, and partly haven't got the right qualifications, but there's something going on there that they're like this. So I really like it when I do get in some of these positions, and I mean, but then disability is part of the reason I'm on that. So I'm actually getting a bit of benevolent, positive bias. They're kind of different voices,
Phil Friend 12:13
but it's expertise. You're on there for your expertise, you give a voice about what a disability work, how it works for you, and that's valuable to them, which is why they've been absolutely spot on to bring people like yourself in diversity generally. You know, we don't understand. I'm sure I've been you and I have been guilty. I'm sure we have of doing some of this stuff to people who are in different diversity groups from ours because we didn't know better. I'd like to think that I'm the sort of person who's able to recognize when the person's face looks a bit strange or something say, oh, did I say something that was not quite right there? Or I give off a vibe that says, if I'm saying something wrong here, please correct me.
Simon Minty 13:02
Well, I've got the time, but, yeah, you pre empted my other bit, which, and I do think this becomes a skill, because we may get this benevolent bias. It means we're very acute to not hand it back out. So whenever I go somewhere, I meet someone with a difference, particularly someone with disability. Don't get me wrong, I'm not a bloody Angel, but you check, I treat them on face value. I don't judge. I don't bring a whole lot of patron patronizing nonsense, and even family members. If there's someone who becomes new to disability or whatever, I end up having a chat with them. And it's very factual. It's very straight off the bat, it's treating them as a fully rounded human being, or an adult or a kid, whatever they are. But so I think maybe the flip side of being experiencing this means we become very good at speaking to other people and not doing it well.
Phil Friend 13:59
I think you put that over really well. Simon, well done. I thought that was an excellent piece of explanation. I'm in all of your skill sets.
Simon Minty 14:08
Bless you. Because you know at your age, just say something like that.
Phil Friend 14:12
It's amazing I can hear you. Is it my age? Yeah. Bless you. No. Interesting. Interesting. I wonder if that term is going to gain traction. Maybe it already hasn't. It's passed me by because I'm very old
Simon Minty 14:28
with a lot of these things. The phrasing may be different, but the concept isn't always with this stuff. I like it. I think it's great. What I don't want to do is start using phrases that confuse people. I want to get to the hub of it, yeah, but we shall see. How are you health wise?
Phil Friend 14:52
Yes. Well, it's been an interesting few days. I'll be very brief, because I don't want to bore the listener to death. But. I think there's a context for sharing it, which is that I had bladder surgery about 10 days ago now, and and that wasn't much fun, and I'm kind of bleeding since, but I'm sort of on top of it. I think the issue for me has been not so much the operation and all that stuff. It's the psychological stuff that follows, or the, you know, I don't tend to worry before things that much. I worry about how I'm going to manage things. So my big fear was waking up after surgery with a catheter and thinking, How the hell am I going to manage that with the way I transfer and all this kind of stuff. So I go into problem solving mode, right? How do I do this? How do I do that? And I have to say that my big dread was they don't know how to deal with disabled people. You know, I can't move like everybody else. Most people having the OP I had walk into the theater, and they get on the trolley, and then they're given the drugs they need, and off they go. In my case, I have to be transferred onto a trolley outside, and then we'll all that kind of carry on. All of that, I have to say, was handled with quite very skillfully and by the staff concerned. And Sue was with me, so she was able to sort of add her own help, and also the advice to them, little moments where they go to put your socks on and I say, No, I can do that. No, no, you know. And they eventually get the message that, no, I need help with, like pulling my trousers up. I need help with, I don't need help with socks. So yeah, but I think,
Simon Minty 16:42
and the reverse just out in just, yeah,
Phil Friend 16:45
yes, yeah, I can. I can bend my legs in all sorts of weird ways to get socks on. I know you find that difficult, yeah, like shoes too, don't you? Did you ever have shoes with laces? It's not
Simon Minty 17:00
You benevolent, bloody bias. No,
Phil Friend 17:02
did you though I'm talking how hard it would be to do them up if you find the socks difficult, it's really practical question. I wasn't trying to be benevolent.
Simon Minty 17:10
I just wear slippers. Phil, you know that?
Phil Friend 17:12
No, you don't. Oh no, you don't. I've seen you wearing other things. But about you, I mean, my choice of shoe would have a sort of velcro thing on it makes it very easy to do up and, do you know, whatever, anyway, so all of that side of things I thought went very well. Really, I wouldn't fault it, but it's the psychology of it all. So what I've realized is that it's knocked seven bells out of me emotionally. So I'm I'm fatigued and just No, no energy, those kinds of things, some of that is clearly to do with post operative, whatevers. But I just, I find that more debilated debilitating than peeing blood. It's just,
Simon Minty 18:00
and how much is the fact that you've gone through a big surgery and you're recovering and it takes time? And how much is it, dare I say it, a sort of bugger. I'm a bit older. You know, we all know bodies don't work as well as they do as we get older. But then there's a, presumably, a speeding up, or there's a or the recovery is slower. Is there a little bit of an age thing going on in there as well?
Phil Friend 18:23
Oh, without question, without question, some of the same issues happened that happened when I put ops when I was 30 and 40, ie anesthetic puts my body to sleep. And everybody forgets that it's not just you going off for a nod. You actually your organs are being put to sleep to a degree as well. So my bowel is a big issue after anesthesia, and so therefore, and I've always had that issue, this time around, it was, it was slightly worse, I would guess, and I'm sure that's aging, but no, I think you're right. I think aging is playing a different tune. There's the issue of mortality. You know, the fact that you're I am getting to an age now where I realized I've had more Olympic games than I'm going to watch. You know that kind of thing? Well, if we don't win the World Cup again soon, I won't have a chance. Yeah, but
Simon Minty 19:16
hold up, you've had England winning the world cup in your
Phil Friend 19:20
I have, I've, not, I know, but you've still got many years ahead of you. There's still time. You've got a great team now.
Simon Minty 19:26
Yeah, you're greedy. You want two, I do have one. I'd love
Phil Friend 19:30
to have two, but it's, it's that kind of recognition that your life is beginning to come to an end, you have no idea when, and all that kind of thing. But that's a kind of interesting set of issues, which I guess, when you're younger, you don't really think about much. I you know, it's just you're immortal.
Simon Minty 19:48
My favorite podcast, I was listening to them. Second favorite is obviously the first one, but I tend not to listen to it myself. Anyway. The point being, they're like you. When you're 18, you smoke and you're out. Look, it doesn't even touch the sides. You're like, it may zip. And then you suddenly realize, Oh my God, as you get older, this is really bad for you. But yeah,
Phil Friend 20:08
I think in conclusion, let me just say this. I think what, what I'm learning from this, and I've known it to be true forever, but when it happens to you, you kind of think I don't need it is you need other people. You need to share it. So talking to you, I don't mean in the podcast, I mean externally. I've had several conversations with you about this. I have one or two other people I talk to about it that give me pretty good advice, and obviously I've got Sue, and we share it and we talk about it. I suppose what I'm saying to the listeners is many of them will be going through similar issues to this. This is not unusual for disabled people to have to go through these things, and it's important not to think you can do it on your own, that you need to have people around you that you can offload with, and who will give you, not necessarily anything at all, but just to listen. And everybody knows this is true. What I'm saying, we all know this, but actually, how many of us really do it? And I'm guilty, because I will say I can sort this out. Actually, I can't, and I need to talk to other people about it and share it and get their thoughts, even if they're not necessarily I can discard them, can't I, but at least I'm talking about it. So that's really the purpose of raising it is to say to our listeners, those that are going through not dissimilar issues, don't sit on your own. Talk to someone else.
Simon Minty 21:43
My current playlist, Barbara Streisand, people need people.
Phil Friend 21:47
There you are. You see Simon, there you are. Perhaps you should play. I'll put a clip in the podcast,
Simon Minty 21:54
of it's quite a weird song, if I'm honest, I don't know. It'll make you much feel better, but I totally take your point. And I think there's a double there's, I live on my own, so Yeah, appreciate medical appointments. I do on my own, except for the biggies where I need to help, and that might be my sister or somebody, just because I need someone else around. You need that, particularly with anesthetic. But then there's your point, which is, it's not just the physical what you're going through, it's the mental and being able to chat it through. Here are the points of view. It's really helpful, really powerful, I guess, for what a better word, even if you disagree, there's some reassurance in that.
Phil Friend 22:29
I mean, I remember when you had your hip done and that knocked you for six of course it did, because it was a big operation, and much bigger than what I've just dealt with. And there was all the rehabs massive. It was a massive operation. There were teams of people going in gallons of blood. I mean, all of that
Simon Minty 22:51
London came just down still.
Phil Friend 22:52
Yeah, it did. We were out. We're bulletins on the gates anyway, moving swiftly on. But I do remember you going through a similar process where you kind of got to a point you thought, is this ever going to get better? Am I always, you know, just but gradually a two things I remember happening. One was you found ways of getting things done, pick up sticks suddenly got used in all sorts of weird and wonderful ways. I know your sister helped a lot too. She was around. But you know it, it was the psychological side of it, the kind of depression which comes with all this that says, Oh God, you know, I don't remember any of this. He's talking pre surgery, no, no, no. Post, post, yeah, I recovered really quickly. Yeah, you did physically. Yeah, you were quite low at the time. I remember your mood being quite low because, for very understandable reasons, you're not able to do quite what you were the ultimate goal. And the game was that you were pain free, and off you went. Then life was brilliant.
Simon Minty 23:58
It's weird and forget all this. Let's have a bit. Phil, don't worry about it. You forget about it all. I it
Phil Friend 24:04
all, exaggerate it. All I'm saying is I do remember having conversations with you where you were doing what I'm doing. You were kind of the one of the why isn't it gone? Why can't I do that now? Why am I, you know, that sort of thing, inpatient.
Simon Minty 24:16
I just remember doing all the exercises because that was really important. Everyone said you've got to do the exercises. The thing I remember most actually someone saying you won't truly feel the benefit of this for a year. Yeah, so don't kid yourself. You might get rapid progress, but it will be a year before you go. I forgotten the surgery. Now I've just got a hip that I don't have to worry about. That was a big thing.
Phil Friend 24:38
I remember you saying, you know, it's been over two weeks, and I still can't run round Marks and Spencer with me shopping. I mean, it's outrageous. They lied to me anyway. We digress. It leads on neatly, doesn't it to our next item, perhaps with Coldplay, because there's a link,
Simon Minty 24:54
uh, Phil myself and our friend Ben Furner and our plus ones. Went to Coldplay at Wembley, and that was because I managed to somehow get three wheelchair user spots plus companion. I was very late. It took us four hours to get to the venue. It's the longest journey ever. But then you sat down and the first song started. I just made in time, and it was joyous. I mean, did you enjoy it?
Phil Friend 25:22
I loved it. I thought it was brilliant. This was the day after my surgery, so it was in a bit of a state. It has to be unbelievable. Yes, I did enjoy it. Sue, loved it. Sue's a big Chris Martin fan, and it was a very different experience, wasn't it, Simon, because you and I have been to Wembley several times to watch England play both men and women at Wembley, and the crowds at football matches are vastly different to the crowds you get at a concert. And I haven't ever been Oh, well, that's not true. I went to Knebworth years ago, and saw Van Morrison, and that was a massive crowd, but it wasn't in a stadium. It was in a park. But that audience and the this, this kind of sing, 80,000 people singing along and having wrist bands, all did crazy stuff, at football, you've got chanting. And tucked away somewhere of 4000 people chanting something else. So it was wonderful. I mean, he is that that band is accomplished. They are good at this stuff. And it was a, it was a very, very loving line,
Simon Minty 26:36
he said, which is when he says, Thank you to the audience. He says, Thank you for giving us this life that we love. And you're like, it's not bad being able to go out in front of 10s of 1000s of people three times a week and do that Sue really made me laugh when we finished it. It's a very simple show, isn't it? That was not a simple show in the I went to the Oasis a month before, they just played guitars and sang, nothing, absolutely nothing. Didn't even move. Cold Play. They moved into the crowd two or three times. He got audience members up. Everyone had these wrist bands. There were those big balloons and, yeah, beach balls. There was the lighting. There was so much going on in that show. It's like a really big I mean, even at the end, they do the credits like a TV show, and they credit 60 different people who made this thing happen in terms of access. So one of our friends, Alex Cowan, she was gonna come, and she doesn't do crowds very well, and she said, I think it's gonna overwhelm me. I'm trying to work out whether she would have been alright, because I think if you come early and you get to your seat where we are. The wheelchair spots are lovely. Plenty of space. You're not grant. There's no people jostling up against you. And then, if you wait 15 minutes, most of the crowd has gone, and you could leave. And I can't work out, I for me, it's joy. It's such an easy thing to do. You park in the blue badge, uh, car park. You go across a little footbridge. You are there. I mean, it's, it couldn't be much easier for wheelchair users now. I mean, do you think if you had a problem with crowds, would it be too much?
Phil Friend 28:10
Probably, actually, but I don't mean that. I think a football crowd would be more worrying, yeah, but, like, because it's very partisan, yeah, there's a silent kind of aggression about some of it. Not that I want to exaggerate that, because we've been to Wembley several times. Never had an issue at all. But I think from a physical access point of view, and everything you're absolutely I know Ben had some concern. Now, Ben isn't somebody who just jumps on his scooter and goes off and does stuff. He likes to have it all planned and ready. So he and I had two or three conversations. I know you did. Sadly for him, he couldn't get booked into the specific car park, which is wheelchair so he didn't have the bridge thingy experience. But he parked in the red car park, which was around the corner from the stadium, not far at all, and made his way in perfectly well. And he had a ball. I mean, seeing a wheelchair user get up and then have more rhythm than the band. I do commend Ben for his dancing. It's got some moves. Has Ben standing up there giving it his best shot.
Simon Minty 29:14
I heard a couple of people going, miracle cure, yeah.
Phil Friend 29:17
Well, he'd been to Lourdes just before coming to the stadium. But anyway, he No, he Ben had a ball. I think looking at him in but, but he, he had a great time. And he's not brilliant, I think in big crowds either, so in that sense. But I know Alex's situation is different from Ben's, and I it's hard to tell, isn't it, you have to give it a try. I suppose
Simon Minty 29:41
it depends what your concern is. Is it just 1000s of people around and all swarming you? That's not a great place to be? I totally get that. Or is it I feel I'm going to be cramped in my seat and that doesn't know you're really comfortable. It's very lovely.
Phil Friend 29:58
But toilets are all good. All that kind of stuff they gotta change in places toilet Wembley, I think they have, yeah, I know they've got loads of other wheelchair accessible loos
Simon Minty 30:09
I nipped to the loo on one of the very few not popular Coldplay songs. And it was literally behind us. I put my RADAR key in. I was in and out before they done the half a song. Yeah, very good.
Phil Friend 30:19
Yeah. No, it was great. And thank you for inviting us or or, you know, getting the tickets and everything. Because it was a great experience. I'm glad I went. And although I was feeling a bit uncomfortable, it was, it was worth it. And Sue loved every minute of it. So, yeah, good.
Simon Minty 30:35
It was very, very special. Um, now we've had a couple of pieces of contact in, oh, what we've welcomed, yep, yep, yep, this was from Emma. And I had been trying to post something on Instagram, and I didn't think it worked. I ended up posting it three times. So she laughed at that this was, but she said this was, she was talking about abnormally funny people in Edinburgh, and said, It's great see you all back together. It takes me back to the days when Ouch. That was BBC Ouch. I think it's Matt Fraser and Liz Carr initially. And was a podcast made by and for disabled people. She misses a bit about she says, I think it's called BBC access all now, until it's very news and it is targeted at a more mainstream audience, which there's definitely a place for that, but she said she thinks there's a place for disability led and targeted podcasts. And you and me, Phil, have plugged disability chat gap in her podcast world, and she loves our commentary and reflections on life past and present. And she's got us down. We do a bit of the past, but we do hope to do the present anyway. It was just really lovely to hear. I mean, it made me feel embarrassed, because we are not in the level of what ouch or access all are. It's still you and me knocking out stuff once a month, but I'm really pleased that if there's some sort of authentic disability jibber jabber and we have great guests as well. So thank you, Emma, that really I know it's a really lovely message to get, except for the tease that I posted the same thing three times.
Phil Friend 32:18
Now, you know, nobody's perfect, Simon, although I know you think you are, but there we go. Emma, what a superstar you are. That's lovely. No, I think, I think Simon, and I've always recognized actually, that the difference in our ages and our experiences and all of that actually make quite a good mix for something like this, where you're looking at various concepts or ideas, and I'm seeing it my way, Simon seeing his. But no, well, I'm glad she's enjoying it. That's brilliant. But I had, we had not me. We had a little note on LinkedIn, quite a lengthy little note, actually. So if it's lengthy, is it little from our chum, Paul Nihill. And Paul says, following some time off, I thought I'd reconnect with your part podcasters. I fell out of the habit of listening. I've just caught up with the last 18 months or so. Goodness me, about an hour each, and as ever, the content is excellent. What I've picked up in is a general reduction in positivity in the podcast through that period. Let's face it, it's not surprising given the macro political environment, I myself am noticing micro aggressions towards disability is increasing and it's becoming tiring. I learned some wonderful strategies on the PDP course, but I think they were based on an assumption that society would continue to evolve and become more tolerant. I'd suggest, in the last few years, it's actually regressing. Removal of diversity and inclusion is seemingly a vote winner. People are uncomfortable saying things that five years ago they wouldn't have dreamed of not helped by social media, which turns a blind eye to disability slurs. I recognize other minority groups will be feeling this too. I can only comment from the disability side, but it genuinely feels that things are going in the wrong direction. Now, interested to know what your respect respective thoughts are. You're possibly by choice. You've probably possibly by choice. Stay clear of politics on recent podcasts, but the rise of Maga reform is a concern. I responded to Paul. I won't read that out, but I did respond to him, saying I thought that was really interesting. When you look at our podcasts in that way, over many, many months, what it does and and I did write back saying to him, we found that, I found that very interesting. Your thoughts, Simon,
Simon Minty 34:46
when I first read, and thank you, Paul, for sending the note. We do love getting the notes, and it's it made us reflect on it. I, first of all, I thought it was it that we you and me again, a bit more miserable. But how much of that is influenced by what's going on the outside world? He's half right? We, we don't spend hours on Tory Labour Reform, Lib Dem. We don't kind of do that. We will talk about politics in the in the broadest sense and what government are doing. But I'm also thinking micro aggressions is a really, that's another benevolent bias. There's people of irritating things that just exhaust you because you have to keep defending yourself, or keep explaining or or it just hits you and it nudges you in a certain way. Um, I, I would like to look, I mean, I can think of two or three very joyous podcasts. Um, I think about when we talked about the television and what am I trying to say? He's saying the general trend is a little bit is it more negative, or is it a bit more less positive?
Phil Friend 35:55
He's saying that the world around us is now dealing diversity and inclusion so on is being besmirched, I guess, and it's sad to see. And our podcast, in a sense, seems to be more, perhaps not depressing. That's not a reflection of that. Yeah, yeah.
Simon Minty 36:17
I think I'm hesitant of agreeing, partly because I'm I don't want to agree, even though he could be bang on and it also then all those people who are really cool, and the progression that we've had around disability, I think we do know, in the last six months or a year, when we think of access to work, we think of personal independence payments, We talk about, yeah, the that Chief Exec saying, from John Lewis, whose government appointed, saying companies are scared of employing disabled people because of discrimination cases, maybe there is a bit of backwardness. And if we think of he's bang on. I mean, Maga or Reform, these are tricky political you see, I'm being quite neutral. But, um, you know, these, these don't always have very positive outlooks on on disabled people, the
Phil Friend 37:08
climate, yeah, the climate around, you know, when we started this podcast, reform didn't exist.
Simon Minty 37:16
Actually, UKIP did. UKIP
Phil Friend 37:18
did, but, but, you know, it was nothing like what we're dealing with now. But anyway, Paul really interesting. Thank you so much for taking the time to write. And goodness, know how you listen to some 18 months. I mean, that's a real dedication. But listeners, look, if you have a thought about what Paul said, or Emma's do, drop us a note and tell us what you think, and we'll, we'll pick up on it when we Simon, I'll meet again,
Simon Minty 37:44
just a little bit of a preview for next month. Oh, yes. And Paul, I don't know if this is what you were expecting, but we will be talking about sexy bits. I mean, that is quite depressing to hear me and Phil talk about. And we've got Jenny Williams, who is from Enhance, which they do disability equality training, stuff like that. But there's this programme that we're really interested in. It's called undressing disability, so the realms of sex and relationships with disabled people, and we will be having a fantastic chat with Jenny about that. So I can't think of anything that's not inappropriate to say, I'll stop
Phil Friend 38:25
I was gonna say I'm gonna do loads of research. Ah, I'm going to have a real look at this. I feel ill equipped to to handle a podcast on this subject till I've done my research.
Simon Minty 38:39
Okay, look forward to that one. Yep, thank you for listening, people.
Phil Friend 38:46
Yeah, take care, everyone. Thanks for staying till the end, if you did, and we'll see you soon.
Simon Minty 38:52
Don't let the bastards grind you down. I
Announcer 38:54
think this is The Way We Roll, presented by Simon Minty and Phil friend. You can email us at mintyandfriend@gmail.com or just search for minty and friend on social media. We're on Facebook, Twitter and LinkedIn.
Transcribed by https://otter.ai