The Way We Roll
A seriously funny take on life from the disability driven duo... Simon Minty and Phil Friend.
The Way We Roll
Cut To Size - Accessible Adaptive Fashion
People join an industry, and many adapt to its culture. Occasionally, someone challenges the culture, disrupts it and brings about a new way of thinking. Our guest, Victoria Jenkins, has done just that, and done it in the harsh, fickle world of fashion.
Victoria spent 16 years in the fashion industry, acquiring extensive knowledge of garment construction. Among others, she has worked with Victoria Beckham, Sweaty Betty, and Jack Wills. After disability affected her, she realised there was a need for adaptive fashion and a potential gap in the market.
We ask Victoria how she started her brand, Unhidden Clothing and what were the significant barriers. We challenge her on the business case, which for so long was seen as a barrier for so long. She tells us about her favourite solo runway shows and what’s next.
Smart, articulate, driven as well as fallible as we all are, Victoria makes a compelling guest..
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Announcer 0:11
This is The Way We Roll, presented by Simon Minty and Phil Friend. You can email us at mintyandfriend@gmail.com or search for 'Minty and Friend' on social media. We're on Facebook, Twitter and LinkedIn.
Simon Minty 0:29
Hello and welcome to The Way We Roll with me. Simon Minty
Phil Friend 0:32
and me. Phil Friend
Simon Minty 0:34
And you are looking very stylish today. Mr. F, strike a pose for me.
Phil Friend 0:38
Yes, it's, it's sartorial. I think you call it a bit sartorial, Weird Fish, you know, shirts the whole deal. I've gone the whole nine yards. But anyway, thank you, and you're looking very dapper too. Mr. Minty, if I may say so. Not your usual sort of sloppy joe, as we used to call them, now T shirts. I think
Simon Minty 0:39
it's a bit sloppy joe, but it's not about us today's show however it is around well, looking good and feeling good, and we have the finest of guests in Victoria Jenkins, hello, Victoria,
Victoria Jenkins 1:12
Hello. Thank you for having me.
Phil Friend 1:15
Now Victoria, as you're going to find out, is a force to be reckoned with, because she's the founder of Unhidden an award winning, adaptive and universally designed fashion brand, and in other words, clothing that works for differently disabled and shaped people as well as non disabled people. Unhidden is a member of the British Fashion Council and hosts solo runway shows.
Simon Minty 1:37
Prior to founding unhidden Victoria spent 16 years in the fashion industry, gaining extensive garment construction knowledge amongst many very well known names. She's worked with Victoria Beckham, Sweaty Betty and Jack Wills.
Phil Friend 1:51
Now, Victoria says she's on a mission to normalize the inclusive design you clearly have taken off, Victoria. How's the mission going? How are you doing?
Victoria Jenkins 2:02
Well, I think the mission went a bit better than I was hoping for, to be honest. You know, I sort of been in the game for quite a long time, and I didn't think I was going to see adaptive fashion on the high street in my lifetime. I was quite cynical about it, because I've spent so many years being told no by so many people. But yeah, the mission is going great guns. And I think it's very clear now, especially in the last couple of years, I think adaptive fashion is here to stay. Now. There's no rolling back. I think the brands that are in this space generally are here to stay, which is really exciting
Simon Minty 2:34
when you say, I mean, because Phil and I have talked about this long, for many years, and when you said you didn't see it on the high street? What is that presence? What is it that you're seeing?
Victoria Jenkins 2:44
Well, so I have my partnership with Primark, which launched in February of this year, and the second drop has literally just gone into stores. And there's some new pieces coming in the New Year as well, but that's in 10 countries, 96 stores. It's on all of their click and collect and George at Asda have just brought out an adaptive range they launched in September, which they did with three disabled content creators and influencers. So that's two brands. And then, of course, there is unhidden and we are. We've just shown our third runway show in September, and we are launching with some very exciting partners in the new year. But I'm afraid I'm not allowed to tell you who they are yet, but it is very exciting. So I think with all of that, you know, it just, you know, and there's other, you know, there's up and coming, and small adaptive brands like in Totem and recondition in Manchester, Dewey, which does short stature clothing. I think the UK is actually really spearheading this movement. I know there are other brands in Australia, in the States, in the space, well, I think the last couple of years, we've all really gone for it, and I think it's starting to show real momentum.
Phil Friend 3:46
That's brilliant, isn't it really good news. I suppose the question I have to kick us off, in a sense, is to say, so why? Why did you get involved in disability fashion? I call it that for want of a better expression.
Victoria Jenkins 3:59
Well to be fair, that's still the term everyone else looks for, I think because we use the term adaptive, but not everybody knows to search for that. So I actually think the search terms generally is disabled fashion. So I mean, I had my own journey with health and numerous hospital admissions. Had life saving surgery in 2012 but it wasn't until 2016 at the time I was working at All Saints who were very good about my health things, by the way, but I was in hospital, and just another patient said she couldn't dress how she wanted to. And she'd, you know, sort of survived ovarian cancer, but she couldn't get dressed. And I just thought this was, you know, such a vulnerable sort of sharing moment for her, but also it must be the case for so many others. So got my laptop out from a hospital bed, had a had a look at what existed at the time, and there wasn't a huge amount. And what did exist, I just thought was a bit medical looking, very functional looking, and very much more from the perspective of like a carer looking after someone than it was from someone who wanted to wear it. And certainly there wasn't any young representation. So I saw the idea took root, and then I left All Saints and went to Victoria Beckham. And then I just, you know, the clothes there were absolutely stunningly beautiful. I miss them. I think about them. But I kind of felt, I did feel very much like this wasn't going to change the world, and this wasn't going to help people. And how could I use everything that I you know, sort of hard earned knowledge, how could I use it for a better purpose? So I quit, and then went freelance, and obviously rent, and having to survive financially meant it took a bit of while to develop things. So I didn't register Unhidden until 2017 but I didn't actually launch for trading until 2020 so Unhidden is actually five on my birthday, which is the 20th of November this month.
Phil Friend 5:46
Big party. Big party.
Simon Minty 5:47
You. You said something there that the some of the places you left and their clothes were absolutely stunning. How do you walk that tightrope between functional, adaptive, accessible clothing, and still making it amazing. I'm thinking I have two velvet shirts, which I adore, and I don't get to wear them enough, but they I bought them off the peg, had them cut, and they just about work. But I also want my comfy. I don't know, you know my question
Victoria Jenkins 6:19
Well, I mean, I think the actually the bigger. There's another wheel to the title that's not even a phrase. There's something else to consider as well, which is the affordability. So I think that does inhibit some of my wilder ideas, just because I have to be realistic about what I think is acceptable to put out to the consumer until we've got, like, a much better base, and then I think we can start bringing in things that cost more. But I think, you know, for right now, we don't need to have, you know, a 1000 pound dress. We need to have Coats, Trousers, shoes. So we've got to start somewhere simple. But I generally, I don't, I start from a point of looking at shapes that I think are quite classic and will last longer, because I try to keep things, I will use the word sustainable, but I prefer to use the word ethical. So we're not pumping out lots of different designs continuously throughout the year. That's never going to be the case. So it's looking at what will work for multiple conditions, but also multiple seasons. You know, whether you can layer them, or whether they can be worn different ways, and sort of making it like a capsule wardrobe within each collection is generally the goal. So I just look at the shape first, and then I start tackling, okay, what does this need for it to be adaptive? And I do sort of separate, as you said in the introduction, between adaptive and universal. So universal anyone can wear. The adaptations are sort of subtle enough that whether you need them or not, you can, you know, anybody can buy it. I think that's that's probably one of the biggest struggles that most adapt. Struggles that most adaptive or universal design brands have, is non disabled people just zone out. But they could wear these things too, and might find that actually they're more comfortable as well, because comfort is one of the biggest things that we build into the garments. So that's, that's what part of it, and then adaptive is what I consider to be more specific to conditions. So you know, when you look at short stature, or if you're looking at wheelchair users, that's a completely different body shape and sort of way of constructing a garment and the pattern itself, which is really, it's fun to work on, but it's working with factories. Never done this stuff before. They fight you. A bit on it. I'm like, I don't need you to ask me why. Just do what I'm telling you, and it will make sense to us. So don't worry. And it's it takes a few goes with every single new factory I work with. We have to have a few samples before they sort of understand it.
Simon Minty 8:35
So when you say they they push back what they fight you is that because they say this can't be real, or
Victoria Jenkins 8:41
it's a bit of, why are you doing this? Or they'll say, why don't you just use buttons? And, like, the whole point is that we're not using buttons. Or, you know, like, they'll, they'll come up with what they think are solutions. I think they think I'm going a long way around for things, but it's as soon as they understand it, they get completely on board. You know, I've had, I actually had some of the factory workers from Primark find me on LinkedIn and send me a message just saying, like, this has been something incredible to work on. You know, like it changes, because once you see it, then it that is that ripple effect. Even if you know, the factory workers, the garment professionals are seeing this, and it's sort of helping them understand the community. And it just means a bit more. And every single retailer that I have spoken to or I'm speaking to, it's very much, sort of, it's very rare in retail that you get to make money and also do some good. So I think, like, that's, I think that's why we're seeing this momentum is the financial viability has now been proven, but it's also just something that you can't help but feel, you know, really, it's incredibly rewarding to work on this it's depressing that we're in 2025, and this is the state of play, but we're here.
Phil Friend 9:45
It seems to me, Victoria, that you're kind of, I remember a time when wheelchairs were chrome, weighed 400 pounds and were dreadfully unreliable, broken, you know. And now we have some incredibly sexy wheelchairs. I mean, beautiful colours, brilliantly engineered. And what I think went on then, and what this is my question to you was, it was actually about engineering and fashion coming together. So is it fair to say that what you're doing is, in one sense, engineering clothes. So as a wheelchair user myself, I want to wear something that fits and looks great in a functional way, so I can undo my flies and pee, for example. But at the same time, I want to marry that in with Mr. Minty's sartorial elegance. I want to look good. Yeah. So do you think engineering and styling have come together in a way which is really making
Victoria Jenkins 10:45
Yes, I think absolutely. And there are some, so many other like technological advances coming on as well, right? I mean, there's various issues with everything as you know, we're all sort of innovating as we go. So I'm super excited to see what happens in the next few years, because I think you know better brains the mine, are going to come up with some really amazing things. But this is why, I think my background essentially as a garment technologist. You are a clothing engineer. So I think that's why I've been able to do what I have at scale and rapidly, because I've, you know, I've worked with a number of different brands. I've worked across different categories and fabrics, different sort of types of bodies, because every brand has their own sort of set fit model base. I've worked with men's tailoring and work with women's tailoring. I think all of that sort of helps. But, yeah, I think we're going to see some amazing advances in fabrics. I think the types of trims that are going to be available. I mean, I've had, I've got some ideas myself that I hope are patentable. But with Primark, for example, we used a magnetic zip so the bottom of it locks together, yes, without you having to fiddle. And you can just pull it up when it's something so simple and it should just, everyone should be using magnetic zips at this point, you know, like, even if you're dressing somebody else, like trying to do off a kid's coat, imagine with a magnetic zipper, how much easier that would be.
Phil Friend 11:59
They use it. Sorry, Simon, they just use it. I've got a I've got a leg blanket that I can wrap around me for when I go and see my kids play football and stuff, and it's freezing. And they use magnetic zips. But the problem is, and here's something else for you, they look bloody awful. I, you know, I look like some kind of piece of packaging. It's terrible. So fashion wise, useless, functionally, very good. Yes. Sorry, Simon,
Simon Minty 12:25
no, but I like your phrasing, and I hadn't thought of it like that, as in a clothing engineer. And Phil and I always say we love engineers, because engineers can do things that make it more accessible and easier for us. You are that in the clothing. I also like that acknowledgement that you are working with lots of other people, because you're going to have brilliant ideas, but they will too, because they're doing it all the time. That sounds really exciting. Now, you said something, and we moved on, but you said the business case is proven. Yeah, is it proven?
Victoria Jenkins 12:57
Well, I mean, obviously I'm not allowed to give the figures, but yes, the fact that, I mean, just the fact that Primark are reinvesting, and it's a long term contract, it always was, but their, their sort of commitment is that they're not going to do a one off and never do it again. They will always have Primark adaptive, whether it's always with me. I mean, I can only hope, but you never know. So I think you know again, without being able to say the figures. You know, it's, I know that it's financially viable. I know from the orders that are coming in for unhidden that it is financially viable, and people are investing in it now. So I, you know, hopefully we do get to a point where everyone is able to share their sales figures. But I think because it is such a new category, still, you know, we've got two household brands in the UK doing it, and much as we are going out into Europe on Primark is it's really hard to cross compare unless someone's going to be that transparent. And I don't think we're quite in that space yet.
Simon Minty 13:54
And maybe I'm internalizing some ableism here. I'm assuming making clothes for people with short stature like me cannot be financially viable because we're so variable. But could it be a bit like if you all the other adaptive clothing makes enough money that you can then have some ranges that aren't standalone? Or,
Victoria Jenkins 14:12
yeah, this is, this is where I think I mean, my long term goal is to get short stature into Unhidden we have done some on the runway before, and we did start developing it with Primark as well. But because it is, again, it's another new area, so it's just developing it, making sure it's done correctly with, you know, enough data from the community that you're trying to serve. So it's definitely part of the plan. But there is Dewey, you know, got to give Shamiya a shout out here. I'm sure she'll be moving into menswear before too long, but, you know, she's got invested. I think she's re raising again, you know, I think she's, you know, she's growing and growing and getting the recognition she deserves. So I think, you know, I it, knowing what is still needed makes it very hard. Because I do, you know, because now that I and Unhidden was acquired last year, and. So I can't do the founder thing of having the idea and going off and making it to be I have to be responsible now. So it means everything takes a bit longer, which is really frustrating, but obviously it means that we're building a much better foundation to work from.
Phil Friend 15:14
Can I ask you Victoria question, I I have a particular interest in this, and it's related to my age. Now, if I, if I look on your website, which is stunning, and it's got some fabulous things on it, and one or two, I'm actually looking at thinking, oh yes, maybe it is a really good and but the models are young. The clothing, I would argue you might argue against this, are young now, I'm not saying that's bad news at all. In fact, far from it. I think we know that younger people do drive the fashion industry. They're always looking for something new, but there are millions of people like me, over 60/70, years of age, who also wants a little nice, and I'm fed up with the fashion that's offered to me. It's rubbish. And I wear, I am able to wear stuff off the shelf. Unlike Simon, I can buy a jacket and not worry about but I'm just wondering where the age profile might sit with you, and how you see that particular segment of a market.
Victoria Jenkins 16:18
Well, I mean, it's Yeah, and this is, again, this is going to show you how long the things take to get done that photo shoot, all the photos on there. The last shoot we did was 2023, quite old. And I do make it a point in my runway shows, I use everybody, every age, shape and intersectionality is really important. And historically, actually, a lot of our customers are older, and we have some great communications with them, saying, No, this is what I need. Or I just bought this with my grandma, and I think, and I do appreciate the photography does make it look young, and the models are fairly young. I mean, Sandy, I hope they don't mind me saying, but, you know, again, it comes down to styling, really, because some of those shirts, I think, you know, you take out all the background and the noise and makeup and what have you, and I think that's what fashion does, generally, once you take sort of the noise away from things and just look at a garment, I don't think age comes into it. And I do, you know, I stand by, especially the first 10 garments I ever designed, which most of which is still available on the site, we have sold out with some of some of the trousers. Now, I think, I think, you know, it depends you can, you can dress things up or down. But, you know, like a pale blue shirt is a pale blue shirt? Sure, sure. So, you know, and the same with the white shirts and the black silk shirts, which, by the way, are very nice, if I do say so myself,
Phil Friend 17:35
I've been, I've been looking at those. I thought, Oh, hello, this, although I would say,
Victoria Jenkins 17:39
because these are the earlier ones. They have far more snap doings. Like, there's a lot of them, and we have, we've redone that for the next drop in March, when we sort of relaunch. There won't be as many, because it is a lot of poppers, but that's what was available at the time
Simon Minty 17:54
for Phil. You don't need anything up above the chest. He has it very open and
Phil Friend 18:00
gold chains, hairy chest. I wear a wig,
Simon Minty 18:05
no poppers above the chest. You mentioned the fashion shows, and I'm itching to come to one. I probably did don't want to be part of one as well. But what, what has been your
Phil Friend 18:16
God, she'll make a note of that.
Victoria Jenkins 18:18
Planning for next year. I've maybe even got a sponsor already, because you could wear your
Phil Friend 18:22
you couldn't wear your medals. Simon, you could wear your medals.
Simon Minty 18:26
What has been your I don't know what most favorite fashion show you've done and why?
Victoria Jenkins 18:31
I mean nothing. I don't know that anything will ever beat the first one, just because I never when I started on hidden my my goal was retail more than fashion. It was, let's just get clothes out to the people that need them, and then, in doing so, realize, actually, well, no one's going to know about it unless I talk to people about it. And then, you know, you do obviously have to talk about fashion when you're talking about retail. So that, and that's kind of been the marketing sort of the thing that I can always point to and say, Well, I've done this. So, yeah, the first one was, I mean, like, I only got to what I'm backstage at every show, so I don't actually get to see it until afterwards. So that one, I watched the rehearsals and cried pretty much every single time, because just watching people go past and sort of strutting their stuff and feeling good. I mean, some people obviously understand to be very nervous. Hats off to every model, because I refuse to do a runway because I find it terrifying. So Simon, you're you're signed up if you want to do it. But yeah, I think. And having watched it back and hearing people react to it, because that's I was counting the models through, but I could hear people and then coming out at the end. And bless him, he hasn't told me off yet for sharing this, but seeing, like my older brother in tears and my mum, I think just sort of seeing that, something that I've talked about for such a long time, and then actually seeing the reality, because it is one thing to hear a concept, but I think, you know, that was very much sort of one of the first times the UK has really seen something like that. So. So it felt like a very powerful moment for us. And we were on the One Show like they'd pre recorded it, but they filmed that about they aired it about an hour before the show. So it felt, you know, it was just, it was an incredible atmosphere. The band I met at a festival and just roped them in because I really liked their music, and since then, I've gone I had a DJ at the second show that's a friend of one of my old housemates, and he's a friend of mine. And then this time around, we had I did really love we had Malavora, which is a death metal band, and they had a song called smile, but all the lyrics were about the fight for equality in the UK. And she opened with a speech about, how are we really doing when it comes to equality with the disabled community? And very like, could not have been more perfect. I could have heard a pin drop when she finished talking. And then out came the song that was like blaring loud, all about ableism and that we don't want, you know, pity and we're not inspiration porn. Absolutely, it was great. So, I mean, the first one, my show, always holds a special place in my heart, though, for being we
Phil Friend 21:04
go. We go from that moment in the bed in hospital. And unlike whatever his name was, who had that moment in the bath, you have the moment in the bed. What was his name, the Greek chap, Eureka. Your eureka moment. There we go. I knew I'd get there in the I'm trying to make a joke. Failed miserably. Anyway, you have that moment, you then end up with this incredible show that's the culminate. Tell me a little bit about the struggle that you must have had as a disabled woman, trying to establish something that was, we all agree, is a brilliant idea, but I'll bet there was resistance. I just like to know a little bit about that kind of stuff.
Victoria Jenkins 21:47
Well, I mean, honestly, I think because it has, it has been and it continues to be difficult. You know, I still have to persuade people now. And originally, I think what actually helped was lockdown, dare I say it, because suddenly everybody was online, so I actually had access to non disabled people in the fashion space that I don't think I'd have been in the same room with otherwise. So in that sense, it really helped, and I made incredible connections all like everything from the photographer to the models to the first factory, all came through WhatsApp groups, social media webinars that I attended, so that, I think, was, you know, quite a unique period of time to be able to do what I've done. But I did, you know, once I needed one of first, I had no I had no savings, I had no resources. You know, I've been freelancing for three years, and then I had, I was in that group of 3 million people where I had an Internet bank account. I didn't qualify for any sort of furlough or any sort of financial help. So basically, I had nothing, and I still decided to launch. So I did a Kickstarter, initially to crowdfund just 5000 pounds and the amount of work you have to put into those things, it was not worth it, you know, like you're sort of using because you have to give, you know, incentivized gifts and things, and actually, just the organization of that was a full time job, and then you're still trying to, you know, by the time you've done all of that, you're exhausted, and you realize 5000 pounds doesn't get you very far. I did. Then I won an award with Holly Tucker, and that was 10,000 pounds, which was hugely helpful. Led to the first production run of the first 10 garments. And then I was on back on the old pitching circuit. I did go on Dragons Den, and we filmed that in 2022 but they didn't air it until 2023 they all said no, but, you know, it's kind of nice to prove them wrong to some degree. But from the back of that from being on it I did then get share. You know, I've got my first round of shareholders and investors, so that helped me put on the second show, and by production of of all the pieces that are in second show. But you know, the struggle with that is, of course, you know, no investors want to be investing in your salary or stock, which is kind of the two things I really needed, like as a product based business and a disabled woman. You know, financial security has been probably the biggest challenge I've had over the last decade. So, so now you know to so when we were acquired, I now have a salary so I can breathe a bit easier, because it was a lot. It's very intense. But the the amount of pitching that I did, you know, sort of from filming Dragon's Den before it was aired, and going around constantly and just hearing no or just walking to I mean, I learned very quickly not to take a stick in with me, because people would immediately zone out. And as soon as I use, soon as I started talking about disability, people, would they be like, Is it, is it really needed? Is there that many of you so, you know, you have to go in with all the facts and the thing and they, I mean, it's interesting. I saw somebody else talk about this, and it's a question that apparently only women founders are asked, and it's always, can you patent it? And they don't, apparently ask men as often about whether or not your product is patentable. I don't know if that's true, but I did say, look in fashion, it's you can't patent a garment. You can trademark a garment, and you can patent a trim, but you can't earn an official garment unless it's really technological, like a sportswear sort of thing. I'm sure that you can. But yeah, it was just hearing no constantly, that there, you know, there wasn't any money, or just just literally watching people switch off and be like, well, and I think there was a lot of fear, you know, they kind of knew, they didn't know anything about it, and they wanted it to stay that way. I didn't want to get involved. So I think, while I think it's got a lot easier, I think, you know, women trying to fundraise, you know, for every one pound raised, 1p of that goes to a female founder, you know. And if you start to put in disability and ethnicity as well, like I'm well aware, as a white disabled woman, I've still afforded a lot more privilege than my black and brown brothers and sisters. It just gets so much harder. So, you know, I I hope that that is changing as well, but that's also a factor. It's not just being disabled, it's also being a woman. Was a lot of the issue
Phil Friend 26:03
But would it be fair to describe you, then, as a pioneer, really, as an emancipator? I use that term deliberately because you're kicking doors down, aren't you? You're trying to get a mindset. You You have to be otherwise you get nowhere, yeah, but more power to your elbow. That's a great story, but I didn't think you'd got where you'd got without a struggle, because it's so sad, but it's fact of life, isn't it? Yeah, oh, sorry.
Simon Minty 26:33
Go on, Victoria, well, and you
Victoria Jenkins 26:35
know, and then you factor in obviously, all the health stuff as well, yeah, yeah. Like, the amount of things I want to do my body is like, No, you're not. You're not going to get to do everything you want to. And getting people to understand that, I think, as well and not see it as a negative. Or, you know, because I definitely overwork. I mean, that's my ADHD brain. But I do also, you know, I kind of have this thing that I have to prove that my disability isn't holding me back, and that has led to burnout more than once. So I'm lot more sensible now. Ish,
Simon Minty 27:05
are you? Because I've met you a few times, and in truth, the sort of impairment stuff has always been played very on the down low, and I assume two things, one, maybe it didn't have a great impact. Or two, you didn't want to go there, because, because of all the baggage that can come with it. Are you, is it having more of an impact, or you being a bit more open about it?
Victoria Jenkins 27:25
I think it's a bit of both. I think it's a bit of both actually. I mean, obviously I'm getting older. I have degenerative conditions, so, so there's those, and I think it's kind of that, it's trying to find that balance of, I don't want that to be the thing that people hook onto, you know, like, I would like Unhidden to win a Business Award, not an inclusion award, even, obviously, those are great and amazing, and I am up, I think, for a couple of the next two weeks as well, which terrifying, but yeah, so it's kind of just wanting that to be seen in its own right, and not viewed through a disabled lens only, but then also kind of saying, but equally, you can't expect me to work, you know, five days a week in the evenings and the weekends. This sort of hustle founder lifestyle is, I mean, it's super unhealthy. It's not good for non disabled people to do, but it's absolutely impossible for me. So we try and ring fence. I have Wednesdays as rest days. I'm quite rubbish at taking them as rest days, but I do my best, and I have an automated response on my email to sort of filter people out so that anyone who's trying to get me to do anything for free, generally, I'm like, guys, my energy is limited. So, you know, it's one of those. You've got just gotta be open and honest. But I, since using that automated response, I've seen a lot of my you know, people always ask and like, of course, you can use the same template. I've seen a lot of other people. Now I start to get these replies from other disabled entrepreneurs I know that are sort of using that as a filtering system so that you don't feel guilty when you take longer to reply, but also so that people actually know where you sit and what what you will and won't respond to
Simon Minty 28:53
you answered one of the questions before we got to it, because you do have one of the most direct out of offices I've seen. And there's something
Victoria Jenkins 29:00
used to be an awful lot more punchy. I
Simon Minty 29:07
I was hearing a comedian, Ross Noble recently said there is an immense power in saying no, and the fact that you know you can say no is really important. I wanted to just go back to that award thing, because you were number two in the disability power list. And I know when I spoke to you, you've said that's been really helpful in certain ways. I also get that other bit where I remember winning a travel award in the mainstream category. Now, a little bit of me was like, well, that's quite cool, because it's not the disability bit, so presumably both help.
Victoria Jenkins 29:39
Yes, of course they do. And I mean, I mean, I think, you know, it hits a bit different when it's an award within a disabled community, because you're like, Ah, my you know, my fellows, my peers, have voted me for this versus, you know, sort of someone that you don't know, or someone in an area that's never heard of what you do before. And awards massively help. I mean, you know, none of us are in this for recognition per se, but I think sometimes we almost, you know, everyone feels like they have to say that it's almost downplay recognition. I think that's really important to actually sit there and go, no but you have done these things, and it should be celebrated, because otherwise you just keep going and going, and then you start to feel, not resentful to what you do. But, you know, I think it's we should be proud of what we do, and there shouldn't be any shame in being proud of it. I think it's there's definitely a sort of thing of everyone cringes away from self promotion, and it is a very like, it's deeply uncomfortable to do like. It's actually, at the moment stopping me. I've been at, you know, have won a few awards. I don't think I've done that many posts about them, because I'm like, oh, everyone just thinks I'm bragging all the time, but you have to share that you've done otherwise. Again, no one knows, because no one really is watching what you do as much as you think they are.
Simon Minty 30:46
And commercially, I totally believe what you've just said, but organizations and backers want to see people who are winning and doing well. I mean, it's horrible, but it's true. So yeah,
Victoria Jenkins 30:57
yeah, it's kind of a Yeah, it's a necessary element, I think. But yeah, I am looking forward to the day when Unhidden wins an award just for, I don't know, be like, ideally, you know, like being the most financially successful that year in retail, lovely. I don't know how likely that is, given that Next clears up. But you never know
Phil Friend 31:16
given, given how busy you are doing what you do. It's worth just mentioning your book, isn't it, you found the time to write a book.
Victoria Jenkins 31:27
I suppose I'm just gonna do this, and then just
Phil Friend 31:32
a Little Book of Ableisms. And you've clearly, there's, there's a bit of you which is about rights and inclusion and that kind of stuff. Given how busy you are, this is my question. Now, how busy you are, how far are you moving towards that other stuff? Because now you've established, I know you've got a long way to go, and you've still got many ambitions, but in terms of becoming known for rattling cages of the establishment about rights for disabled people, in particular, in fashion and so on. Does that have an attraction to you, or is that something that maybe you'll do when you're older?
Victoria Jenkins 32:14
Or no, it does, and it is something I'm vaguely involved in now. I mean, a lot of it is, I mean, even just the very nature of doing what I do rattles people. I definitely think I have a slight reputation for not being a troublemaker, but for definitely calling out things as and when I see them, there was there was one recognition thing. There was an award and a dinner, and I was not invited. And I found out was invited by other people that were there, posting about it on Twitter, and I called out Vogue, because I wasn't, I really. I was like, Well, you know, it's not a great look that the, you know, one of the few people we haven't invited was the only disabled woman on that list, and they were very apologetic and said, you know, it wasn't intentional, but you know, you know. And the fact that I even continue to mention it is probably why I may never end up in Vogue because I've told them off. But, you know, it's an opportunity for supposed to grow and learn together. I mean, I've done work with the Lilac Review working. I mean that, and that was across two governments, and it was, it was a bit, I don't know, challenging to see the difference between the two and the actually the Conservative government or the people involved directly, I would say, rather than the government themselves, the people involved directly were very hands on. And I think, you know, as a new government, the people involved in Labour didn't have the freedom or luxury of time and experience in those spaces. So it felt a bit more stimmied towards the end. But there was still, you know, a huge, great amount of work that came out of it. And then now
Phil Friend 33:44
remind people what the lilac review is that, just in case they don't know.
Victoria Jenkins 33:48
So that was a review with small business Britain, a steering board of disabled people and the government to just identify ways, like specific ways and targets in areas that the government can support disabled entrepreneurs to sort of move towards equality, you know? And it was in things like how to network, mentoring, access to procurement, access just to information and people and networks. So now they've got the Lilac Center for Disability. I really hope I've said that, right? Sure, it is the lilac. Yeah, the lilac.
Phil Friend 34:24
Put it. We'll put it in the show notes. We'll find it. And
Victoria Jenkins 34:27
so that's a continuation. So that is sort of like a hub. There's a virtual one and a physical hub, I think, in Peterborough, and that is going to support, you know, sort of cohorts and accelerators for several entrepreneurs to sort of learn everything that they need to to start and run a business. Start and run a business with huge amounts of resources. And we did speak an awful lot to all of the banks. The banks have come up with a disability finance code, and that's the first time, you know, NatWest, HSBC, Lloyds and Barclays have all come together to work together. So again, you know, there was huge amounts of benefit. To what we did. And I do speak to people around fashion policy as well, because I kind of one of my goals is to mandate every every designer has to have one in five models have a disability, visible or otherwise. But that's kind of one of my goals, because I think if we don't mandate it, they're not going to do it. And by having that on the agenda, they will have to look at the accessibility of the venues themselves, and of, you know, the processes, and I think that will lead to a huge shift, because once you start making it accessible, people realize, like, it's not that difficult. It's really easy to get it wrong, but it's not that hard to get it right. And I think, yeah, the only way we're going to get them to do it is if we force them
Phil Friend 35:42
to, yeah, it well, just to follow up. Sorry, Simon, I seem to be hogging this a bit. I am very struck by the fashion industry's reputation in other countries and the exploitation of workers and all that kind of stuff, which is also a rights issue. I'm just wondering how you see that, whether there's, you know, in your struggle to make everything inclusive and so on.
Victoria Jenkins 36:08
Yeah, well, I mean, yes, of course it is, you know, I, I'm endlessly on the side of garment professionals and workers and you know, and we, there hasn't been the greatest treatment of them. And disabled models are oftentimes not paid the same, if they're paid at all. So I think there needs to be far greater transparency around that as well. And I think you're everything comes from, you've just got to be more transparent, which is what I try and do with Unhidden I mean, we've, we've published, you know, literally, exactly what garments cost to get made before we do a lot of discussion around that. And I think there's two parts to that as well. It's not just being transparent so you can prove that the people that are making your clothes are being paid properly. It's also ensuring the consumer understands that you can't get, you know, something costs five pounds. It's not cheap. It's costing someone. Something that's it has literally been costing people their lives. And, you know, we've kind of been bred into this fast fashion nightmare. So, you know, I'm constantly having to defend why things cost the way they cost. But if you're going to pay your garment workers what they should be paid, you're not going to get a 10 pound t shirt unless you are ordering in huge, vast quantities like Primark can. You know, I'm a small, independent brand. We're not placing orders anywhere near the numbers that they can so we won't come near those prices. And we also do, you know, shipping and logistics and delivery, which isn't part of, you know, primarks business model. So it's yeah, there's yeah, there's a lot of ethics that get really dicey in fashion. And it's, you know, there's a lot of commitments now there's some digital passports I think are becoming law, rather than just a nice to have. So you have to prove where things are made, and people can see that whole journey. I mean, unfortunately, it is an additional cost. So, I mean, smaller brands are going to really struggle to be compliant, because how on earth are we going to find extra money to pay for this digital passport per garment, or at least per design. I mean equally, I say that it means that we're not going to be just, you know, throwing out 100 designs a month like some brands do, because it's just not going to be financially viable anymore. So I'm hoping it will move a shift towards things being better made, ethically made, and a greater transparency from brands, which I think small businesses do, do
Simon Minty 38:24
change of tact. And this is going to be a long question, Victoria Phil and I, when we started this business, he was already working, but I joined his business. 25 years ago, legislation came in and the law, the Disability Discrimination Act, said you needed to make adjustments to the provision of goods and services, but not to a manufactured good. And Phil and I, one Friday afternoon, into the early evening, started debating whether a made to measure suit is a good or a service? Is it a manufactured good, or is it actually a service? Now I wondered, what your I mean, I can add a little bit of flavor, because I have thought about it for 25 years, rather than put you on the spot the thick because the argument would be, I shouldn't have to pay extra for a made to measure suit. But then I saw, as I dug deeper, I found that patterns, even for me to measure, were pretty standard to begin with, and they tweaked them so it wasn't every individual is a brand new case. I mean, is that making sense
Victoria Jenkins 39:34
to you? Yes, yes, yes, yes. So that, yeah, there's what you'd call a block. So, you know, like, once you've got the fit of a shirt correct, you could, in theory, do in different prints and colors, change your trims, but the Fit remains the same. So yes, that is sort of off the rack capability we are made to measure. I mean, I agree, and I originally launched as made to order, but it wasn't possible you could change what trim there was, although no one actually ever did change the trims for. Thankfully, because magnets were a nightmare, and a seamstress has hated them, but it don't know it is more expensive, but there are some technological advances in, you know, sort of people doing a scan of your body, and then they can use 3d and even AI modeling. And I'm not huge fan of AI, but I'm aware it's out of the bag now, so we're going to have to some degree, but that can then, you know, do a pattern, and it can do sort of like on demand clothing, which I think is a fantastic idea, because then, you know, you know it's going to fit you. I think the problem comes is, if it gets made and you put on and you don't like it, what you're going to do then, because you can't return it. So I think some of the parameters of that would have to be examined. But I think made to measure should be things. I think it needs to be a bit more respected. You know, I make wedding dresses. I've made two in the last year, and, you know, I've worked, it was for Ruth Madeley and Nikki Fox with absolutely amazing, lovely women. And they couldn't, they had no option to go into a wedding dress shop, because there was nothing really for them. And Ruth even had a friend who has a wedding dress shop and said, you know, we'd be taking an existing garment and adapting it, and that would probably take more time and still might not work, because it's not been built in so, you know, she sort of said to her, no, definitely go and work with Victoria anyway, which was lovely. But, you know, there's a lot of scope and spaces for that. It's just, you know, hand, handmade and bespoke does cost more than than off the rack, but I don't think it would cost more for a disabled person to have things made, because there's no reason why it would. I think the only issue would come in if you're working with people who have never worked with someone with a body other than like a standard, and that's where the problem comes in, or if they don't understand the functionality. That you would need and the ways to achieve it. So, you know, there are definitely, I think there's a growing breed of, you know, cat from seated sewing, does consultancy, sort of based on bespoke work. I'd love to have the time to do more of that. And that is something that I'm hoping I can build in in future. I, you know, I've even seen I was, as an example, I was shopping, online shopping, just having a look around at M and S yesterday. And you could choose your size, but you could also choose whether you want to petite, regular or tall. So I was like, well, they have, you know, they there are ways of doing it, but again, you might need either the resources or the finances or just the structure in your supply chain to do it. But, yeah, I think it's something people should think about if they do want something special made. No, it won't. No, it won't cost you any more than a non disabled person, but it is still vastly more expensive.
Phil Friend 42:27
Yeah, and as so Simon and I in that conversation 25 years ago are still searching for the definitive answer. But what we but what we know is, from what you just said, Actually, serious point is it's fine to pass on the cost if you've incurred it. So, you know, don't make a reasonable adjustment if it's going to put you out of business, for example. So, but yeah, the hunt goes on, Simon, we still haven't the definitive answer. Well,
Simon Minty 42:53
I like Victoria's answer, but I also feel now it's kind of rather than just off the racks. Almost the major this adaptability is coming towards that rather than, as always going off to the main measure part. So
Phil Friend 43:06
it's long, tall, isn't it? Long, tall fashion I remember. Well, yeah, actually, that
Victoria Jenkins 43:11
was one of you
Simon Minty 43:13
not interested in that. I'm sorry I'm not interested.
Phil Friend 43:18
I wonder why. Well, I think, ladies and gentlemen, that we are running out of time now, so I suppose we've got to end this shortly. But I suppose you've answered it in a sense, Victoria. But I wonder whether there is more what you're doing, what the future holds for you. How do you see you've obviously got your salary now, which is brilliant. So you're in, you know that that helps. But how do you see things panning out in the next three, four years?
Victoria Jenkins 43:46
I mean, there's what I hope, and then there's going. Well, who knows? Because I couldn't have predicted the last two years. What I hope, my goal is, is that, you know, I would love for Unhidden to become like a lifestyle brand, like an aspirational one that seem, you know, by obviously, is a sort of rod for people with disabilities, but also non disabled people, just knowing there's a comfortable shopping option with a social impact, and, you know, sort of lead founder at the heart of it. And to move into other categories, I really want to do shoes. Definitely. I'm looking at underwear and lingerie, sleepwear, sportswear is one of the things like, I want to steal that contract off Adidas, so bad, but I think they've got it until like 2036 so or 2030 I was going to be a fight on my hands, but I would do. I would love to work with Paralympians from any country, obviously, from GB. It would be amazing. But seeing as Adidas has got that tied up for now, I might have to settle for any other country, and I'd work with any other country. So sportswear is one of the things as well, but I want to have like a stand alone store. I mean, who knows, maybe more than one, but that it would be always like a community place as well. You know, people come in and shop. Maybe we'd have, like, tech accessories be able to. HOST, like open mic nights or just events as well. But it's also a shop, so you can come in, be fitted, use changing places, changing rooms, you know, so that, and there's more than one, so you know that everybody can just go in and, like, enjoy the experience of shopping, and maybe, you know, meet some people and find some new ideas, or some new pieces that they didn't know that they didn't know that they needed in their life that would help. So that's, yeah, that's, that's
Phil Friend 45:26
not much. Then really quiet. Couple of years,
Victoria Jenkins 45:30
maybe next month, I'll be quiet. I just have to accept this is just life now. It's never going to be quiet.
Simon Minty 45:37
I know, but I that you said the line, and I felt that sometimes you couldn't have predicted the last two years. So you should have those ambitions. Could you never know what's up in the next few years? Yeah,
Victoria Jenkins 45:49
exactly. Yeah. Like, maybe, who knows? Maybe next year I'll end up in a shop, or I'll have a shop by the end of the year. It could happen. I just Yeah, I kind of, I'd be, I belong for the ride now, as much as I'm trying to drive it forward as well, and being dragged along as well, I think, with it.
Simon Minty 46:03
And this is an extra question, who supports you?
Victoria Jenkins 46:07
I have my amazing Zelda, my PA, who I have, through access to work. We don't have time to go into the nightmare that is access to work, but I have Zelda. I, you know, have great friends and family that support me. We do have, you know, through the brand, through the company that acquired me, I have support on the supply chain and logistics and sort of people that have opened doors within retailers, for sure, but it's still a very lean team, and I think that's going to be the goal for the next few months, is to grow the team, because the unhidden can only grow if it's got more people. It's not, it's not going to be possible for me to do what I want to do if it's me and Zelda on the day to day, and with a the amazing Tabitha, who is my social media freelancer, She's incredible. So we need more people. We need a bit more power behind us, and then I'll be really excited to see what we manage to do well.
Phil Friend 46:58
Thank you very much, Victoria. I mean, that's a it's a remarkable journey, which I didn't know so much about, but I do now, and the future sounds pretty exciting. Actually, if you pull off some of those things, it will be quite amazing, won't it? So I wish you well, good luck. I think it's fabulous.
Victoria Jenkins 47:16
Thank you. Thanks for having me and having such great questions. It's been fun.
Simon Minty 47:21
Thank you, Victoria.
Announcer 47:24
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Transcribed by https://otter.ai