Tourette’s at the BAFTA’s, Less remote working. Our 10th anniversary.

It was hard to miss the furore of the offensive language moment at the BAFTAs this year. A couple of months on, we take a cool, reflective look at what went wrong and how we can do better next time. We wonder whether this moment has progressed the inclusion of people with Tourette’s? 

It seems the Covid impact on working from home is truly ending as remote work declines and more employees are expected to be in their workplaces. Does this have a disproportionate and negative impact on disabled employees? That said, we need to ensure we don’t argue for a world where disabled people only work from home. 

Ten years ago, in April 2016, we recorded our first podcast. Back then, the Brexit referendum had just begun, there was a review of disability benefits and a doctors’ strike. Plus ça change! We remember the first pod and highlight a couple of favourite moments since.

To wrap up, Phil has good news after MSPs rejected a law to introduce assisted suicide in Scotland, and Simon recommends the Disability And… podcast with Jack Thorne and Eli Beaton, who talk about disability and television. 

Links

BBC I Swear director says Baftas 'let down' Tourette's campaigner

The Guardian letters re BAFTA 

BAFTA Statement Feb 2026

BAFTA Tourette's row has 'reversed' film's message

Tourettes Hero 

Remote Jobs Are Disappearing — And Disabled Workers Are Paying The Price

Scottish parliament votes against legalising assisted dying

Disability and… Access to TV podcast 

First show April 2016

Transcript

Welcome And Tenth Birthday Tease

Announcer 0:10

This is the Way We Roll presented by Simon Minty and Phil Friend. You can email us at mintyandfriend at gmail.com or just search for Minti and Friend on social media. We're on Facebook, Twitter, and LinkedIn.

Simon 0:28

Hello and welcome to the Way We Roll with me, Simon Minty. And me, Phil Friend. And how are you, Mr. Friend?

Phil 0:35

I'm very well indeed, actually. Very, very well indeed. First time for months the sun's out, so I'm always well when the sun's out. Not far off the cricket season. Summer's around the corner. All is well. Thank you very much. How about you, Nale? I know you're not quite right, are you?

Simon 0:49

Yeah, for the listener, I may cough and I've got a chest infection. I'm nearly over it, but um my voice is not great at the moment.

Phil 0:57

Um I was very sexy, actually, very husky.

Simon 1:00

Uh that's sort of kind. Uh I'd rather I'd rather be a bit unsexier and less coughing. Um uh, but there we are. Um we have a couple of cotton topics, and also it is our tenth birthday this episode.

Phil 1:17

I noticed there's no cake. You've let me down, because you know I can't cook.

Simon 1:23

In the very early days, we would meet, have lunch, and then record.

Phil 1:27

Terribly civilized. The audio was rubbish, but the lunch was lovely. James Partridge, you remember dear James when the three of us tried to bake a cake together?

Simon 1:39

Yeah.

Phil 1:40

That was an absolute hoot. There's video evidence of us producing a cake, so that was for dining with a difference, wasn't it?

Simon 1:47

It was, it was indeed. Uh one of the other hippie days.

Phil 1:49

Lovely James, lovely James Partridge.

Tourette’s Moment At The BAFTAs

Simon 1:51

Uh, we will return to our 10th birthday um uh shortly, but uh let's kick off. This is a little bit old, and by the time the listener gets to listen to this, it will be a couple of months. Um, but it's still floating around, and this was uh at the BAFTAs um in London, where the film I Swear, which is a British film uh about John Davidson, who is a man who has Tourette's and it follows his life uh all the way through. Now it was nominated for a few BAFTAs. In fact, the actor who played John Davidson, who doesn't have Tourette's, which is another debate for another day, uh, won Best Actor. Um, John, real life person, was in the audience, and he would shout out involuntarily, because that's what Tourette's does, and they preempted it and said, This is gonna happen. Um, and there were nice moments. There was some very senior person that came on, and John shout out, boring, get on with it, and stuff like that. But there was also a moment where um two Americans uh who are black people uh were on stage, and John shouted out the N-word, and you can see one of them visibly stiffen. The debate has been the BBC put the show out afterwards, and they edited out one of these N-words, but didn't do it for the other one, and it stayed in, and there's been a big furora about this, and it's it's opened up a whole load of debate and discussion. Um, I mean, I I've sort of preempted it and I have some thoughts, but I realise I'm talking a lot. So, any what what did you what did you make of it, Phil?

Phil 3:34

Well, uh I suppose obviously you and I have an interest in the disability stuff, and therefore these stories stand out a bit, but I'm kind of feeling a bit like just an ordinary person reading about this and thinking what would my reaction be. So I've got two thoughts really. The first one is the BBC clearly screwed up, they missed, but they missed one and got the other one, and sh that that's just I don't know, I don't know what's going on there. It's about surely it's about production values and quality control and people being careful, isn't it? So that's one bit of this. The other bit of it is to do with an individual who's got Tourette's who's at a live something or other, who is shouting out mostly inoffensive comments, but occasionally quite offensive and severely offensive comments, I guess. How do you deal with that? Because that's a different issue, isn't it? You know, people can should be feel should be able to go to the theatre and enjoy a show and so on and so forth, but if their condition is such that they can't control their outbursts, and I mean that in a nice sense, I don't mean losing their temper or anything, um, then what about the rest of the audience? What about the actors? You know, what about all of that? I think this is fraught with difficulty actually.

Should The BBC Bleep Slurs

Simon 4:56

I um went to see a filming of I Swear uh earlier in the year, beginning of the year, and it was at the British Film Institute, a BFI, it's one of those like special do's, and it was hosted with a Q ⁇ A afterwards by Jess Tom. And Jess Tom is also known as Tourette's Hero, she's a performer, um, a creative, and also a disability campaigner. Um, and she did the intro to the film and said this is the first time I've been to the cinema in 20 years because I don't normally go. Um, and the joy was watching the film and having Jess sit three seats away from me with her various ticks and nods and and shouts and so on. Um there was uh what it's also thrown up to me is there's a sort of deep-rooted problem that people are still having difficulty with accepting this happens. I mean, if I I throw it back to you, we we have a solution, it's not a good solution, but it's one, the BBC messed up, they put a microphone right by him. And I've done training for BBC audiences staff, and I it's one of my case studies. Someone with Tourette turns up, what would you do? 30 years ago, they'd say we wouldn't let them in or we'd put them in a sound booth, which is actually what John Davidson did halfway through the BAFTAs. He said, I can't control this, I'm gonna go and sit in a private room. Um nowadays they go, Well, we just find them a spot where there isn't a mic, it'll be least impactful. But we also have um what do you call it? Um relaxed performances. Um, and so it it's limiting because you can't go to every show, but the relaxed performance means anyone can go and they can make whatever noise they want to.

Phil 6:41

And the rest of the audience are uh aware that that might happen.

Simon 6:46

Yes. I mean, I think that's the point, isn't it? Half the audience book and don't realise it's a relaxed performance until they get there, and I'm sure a couple of them go, oh hell, and the other half, oh, this is quite fun. We can just make any old noise.

Phil 6:58

Well, I mean, as you say, you know, John Davidson could be very amusing um without meaning to be, but he can be. Um, no, it's it's it's very tricky. I mean, I'm minded as of as being a child when we all went to the Coliseum Theatre in London, the whole hospital, we all went all in loads of coaches, and we arrived at the Coliseum to find that they'd taken out all the seats on the in the stalls area, no seats, mattresses. We're all laid on the mattresses, and then we all watched Cinderella. Um, that was what I would now call a ghetto performance. No one else was there, just us. It was a big deal, nice charity moment for those that arranged it all and stuff like that. But but there is, you know, you so you can't say, right, this is a Tourette's night, you know, everybody comes in because it's a Tourette's night. You can't do that.

Simon 7:49

Well, you can't do it. One I would say economically, there isn't probably enough people that can all come on that single.

Phil 7:56

Yes.

Simon 7:57

You can make it a relaxed performance to say we've got three relaxed performances in the run. This is what I mean. When we did have Normandy Funny People in Edinburgh, every night is a relaxed performance.

Phil 8:08

Of course.

Simon 8:09

It it anyone can come and anyone can do what they do. Generally, most people are pretty good, but it didn't matter. That was the point of it. Um, I think always the risk, uh, and Jess has talked about this, is that the performer then gets involved with the person with Tourette and starts trying to make material out of it or get them too involved, and and that's not fair either. Um there could be an acknowledgement, there can be a nod, but it's not they're not part of the show. They're like every other punter. Um, but we still go back. So the the BBC, the cock up was here's a question, period. It's still rattling around my head. The fact that John said this, and this is him naturally being him, should they edit out anything anyway? Should it not be as live and real?

Phil 8:55

I kind of feel that they should have edited it out. Because I'm watching this in my living room, the famous living room scenario. I'm not controlling what's coming down the tube at me, and suddenly this word comes out. Let's change it and say cripple. That comes out of my television set. Now, my back is broad actually, so I'm probably just gonna hang on a minute, what was that? Um but we know that there are some words in the lexicon that are now regarded as offensive, absolutely offensive, and the N-word is one of those. So if we can edit, bleep it, don't avoid it, but bleep it so that the word isn't used, but we know something was said that was out of order kind of thing. That's a different issue from somebody like John who can't help but what he's doing. You know, it's not he's not being deliberate, he's not being rude, he's not meaning to be, but this is the way it is for him. So I think the television audience have a right to expect that the BBC will at least remove the word but acknowledge that something was said because we get the bleep.

Relaxed Performances And Audience Expectations

Simon 10:04

Um and I mean John is disappointed, he's saying with the BBC they should have taken them both out. It's not he's not I'm being a defending it, no. Yeah, I'm I'm kind of in a sort of uh slightly weird over-the-top purist to kind of go, should it be as is? Um, I don't know anybody who said no, it should stay in. Because it the difference was Alan Cummings, who was the host of the night, said at the beginning this is gonna happen. When it happened, he said, just to let you know, this is gonna uh the reasons why. We hope you can bear with it, all that kind of stuff. He said it slightly better than I did. Um, I I think there's a technical cock-up by the BBC. It does throw up this bit of does it at the end of the day, his presence I'm I'm worried it's made it worse. And I don't mean that it's anyone's fault per se. It's has it made us think, oh, we should be much more open-minded, people with Tourette's can come along and enjoy it the same as everybody else, and we can get on with it. I I don't know, it feels like it's made everyone a bit more sensitive.

Phil 11:03

Well, maybe that's true, but it's also maybe uh awareness raising, maybe Tourette's is back where we were 20 years ago, the public acceptable accepting that there are people amongst us who have conditions which make them say things that may be offensive. You know, we have I I can remember blind uh deaf people being beaten up because they use sign language. You know, I that's a bit prehistoric, but I mean what I'm saying is that maybe Tourette's is at that kind of threshold now where what John Davidson and people like him and um oh god, Jess Tom, yeah, you know, they're in the public domain, they're doing stuff that it's very challenging to be with them, um, but it's part of life's rich pattern. You know, there are a lot of people who are different. So I don't know really. I think I I'd hate to think that most of us aren't tolerant and understanding that there are sometimes things that happen that are not the person's fault, and we just go with it.

Simon 12:06

Um I would I would pick you up. I I don't when you say challenge to be with them, I don't think it is. It's if you are in an audience in the theatre and there makes some noise, I totally get your okay, I've got to adjust my enjoyment of this show. Um being with Jess two minutes in, it doesn't make any difference.

Phil 12:26

Yeah, I get that. What I was let me just clarify what I meant really, which is that if you've never met someone with Tourette's before, right, and they start behaving like Jess does or John does, you have to kind of whoa, this is very unusual. I'm not used to seeing this. Now, for most of us, hopefully, we kind of quickly okay, it's a bit like sign language. They suddenly start signing at you. But the shock is the words they're using and the mannerisms and the way they're communicating. That is, to be fair, unusual if you've never seen it before. So I'm just saying, wool, and then as you say, once that because that person, of course, this is what we say a lot about disabled people anyway, needs to take control as far as they can in helping me understand what's going on here. Because they're doing it all the time.

Simon 13:14

I mean, it's self-perpetuating, and the problem with that is because you say this is unusual, that's because we don't allow people to go to the bathroom. Of course, tourette. And so we never experience it, and and it's like you've had another road. Uh the couple of last bits uh from me, anyway. Um, there was a lot of people with Tourette's who were popping up on my Instagram feed, and that included um mixed race and black people with Tourette's. And they said, I shout out the N-word at myself, and you're like, Okay, this is really interesting. This isn't uh a John thing, this thing comes out, uh, and it doesn't matter who you are. Um, the only other bit Jess um mentioned to me, or she mentioned it at the BFI showing of, I swear, and she said um we would have gatherings of people with Tourette's, and there was one where 56 of us got 50 or 60 of us got together, and we had this very eminent professor of understanding I don't know neurodiversity and Tourette's, um, who had come from Italy to speak to us all, and she said he was really great and he knew his stuff, but she said the poor chap, he had 60 people with Tourette's in front of him who just shouted out different forms of pasta for entirety of his uh typical Jess, Tom, isn't it?

SPEAKER_02 14:29

That is so classically Jess. And I think, well, it's not just her, it's all of them.

Casting Debates And Film Takeaways

Simon 14:33

No, I know, but it's just a brilliant the visual, the visual of that is and I it's it's about all these conditions, particularly everyone says, Oh, there's all these great things, and with Tourette's there is a joy, and there's a creativity, and there's a humour, and there's some amazing stuff, but there's also really complicated, heavy stuff, yeah, you know, seizures or uh real exhaustions and all the other things that come with it.

Phil 14:56

So um well, I think the whole film, I've not seen it, and I must make sure I do, but the film itself portrays the dark side of all this, doesn't it? The funny bit is one side, but the rest of it being beaten up, and you know his life that's what the film is about, as I understand it. It was a picture of somebody's life living with this situation.

Simon 15:17

Uh and I have to do my disability rights bit. Um, it the actor who won the bathroom doesn't have Tourettes, and there is some debate as ever. Um, I'm not gonna do a spoiler, but at the end I was a little bit I don't know what the word is. The end wasn't the best end for me. So I'll be interested to see anyone who's really involved in disability and representation or what they think of the end. But it's a great film overall.

Announcer 15:43

Thank you for listening to The Way We Roll with Simon Minty and Phil Friend. If you enjoy the show, don't forget to subscribe, rate, and share.

Phil 15:51

So um I uh came across a piece this week or last week, um, which basically is uh a short article in all work. We'll post a link as we always do. Remote jobs are disappearing and disabled workers are paying the price. Um God, here we go again. So thinking back to COVID and what went on in COVID and how we couldn't go to work and all of that, and we all know then what happened was that people worked from home and so on and so forth. And suddenly there was this kind of sense of barrier removal for disabled people. The commute, all the stuff about not having accessible toilets in office buildings, all that all disappeared. Um disappeared to a degree, let's put it like that. And suddenly disabled people were doing what they'd always tried to be doing, and now everybody else thought, well, this is all right, actually. All everybody liked kind of the fact they didn't have to get get up in the morning, get on the tube train, and whatever else. So off we went. And now it seems that the push to get everybody back into offices is is gaining a lot of ground, and uh the the sideline effect of that is um that disabled people are now being, if you like, forced back into an inaccessible work life. So the survey that they quote in this says they talked to 1,200 disabled adults, 85% of whom said they remote or hybrid working would be essential or very important, looking for a new job, and 79% said they would not apply for a role that did not include remote options. Preference obviously the preferences were very clear. 31% said they wanted to work remotely more often, while 46% said they preferred to work remotely all the time. So it the figures are not worry about the figures too much, but what they're basically saying is that most disabled people looking for work are looking for some remote aspects to that. And equally, some couldn't contemplate working without remote options. And I'm always minded of people in this conversation where this topic is coming up, who have fluctuating conditions where you know, sometimes hourly, but usually maybe a day at a time, their lives, their energy levels, or whatever they are, and they can't predict what they will be. But with the flexibility of working from home and so on and so forth, um, they're able to manage a successful career. And why wouldn't they be? So I just thought, oh, because I've also been reading a lot of stuff the last two or three weeks about cuts in this, getting rid of that, access to work is this, motorbility is going to make changes to its scheme. You know, whenever I've looked now, there seems to be a retraction of shrinking of uh support for disabled people in one form or another, which flies in the face of logic because the government are saying they want more disabled people in work, but they're doing all sorts of stuff that seems to be contrary to that objective. So this is just another little example. What's your take, Mr. Minty? What do you think?

Simon 19:01

Well, I'm a bit on a bit of a downer, I'll be honest, after that. Oh, you're a bit depressed. Um so I suppose if I was pushing this, it's like, well, this is ever thus. What your point is we everybody wanted to work from home. Sorry, let me clarify that again. There was a point pre-COVID where some disabled people say, Can I work from home? And I would say, Well, we don't know that will work, we need to go through a process, let's try it out, and it would take a year, and they'd have one day at home. We go, No, it doesn't work. COVID happened, everybody worked from home. We thought, okay, this is the revolution, it's okay, we can see it works. Then companies are now saying, all come back into the office, and disabled people are being disproportionately affected by this. Is that the on you?

Phil 19:49

Yeah, I suppose the effect on disabled people that rely on remote working to a degree is greater than it would be for somebody who isn't. So getting getting on the tube and going into London is inc inconvenient for many and something they'd rather not do. But if you can't get on the tube, you've had it.

Simon 20:06

And I'm trying to think because there's been a few cases where people got jobs pre uh during the pandemic or recent shortly after, and they did it because they could work from home. Yeah. Then the company said we're not doing this anymore, and people are going, Oh, I can't do the job anymore. Yeah. So I'm just trying to well, I suppose what I'm trying to say is what's new about this is it, is it is there something that's changed? The change is more and more companies are saying we're not doing remote working anymore.

Hybrid Work Benefits And Real Tradeoffs

Phil 20:30

Yeah, that is a change. And I think the disproportionate effect of that is on disabled people, seems to be the argument. And I think you're right, you know, for many people with families or other commitments and so on, working from home was brilliant. Yeah, you know, they could fit their lives around it. It and and the evidence seems to be that you know, you had a happier ship, people were were less stressed and all that kind of stuff. Um now I I I get the point about socialization. I've always worried about remote working from the kind of loneliness, not understanding relationships with peers and all that kind of stuff. I think that is the downside of remote working.

Simon 21:09

Um, I yesterday I did a career development program, um, which we've both done, and this is for disabled managers, and we had nine in the room and four remote. Um it's trickier because you've got to make you want to make sure everyone's there's a hybrid meeting. There was two or three people in the room that said, I'm gonna use all my spoons and tomorrow's spoons getting here today. So tomorrow I'll be whacked out because it's too exhausting and so but I really wanted to be in the room for this first day. Um that's fine for a one off, if you see what I mean. But if you're saying I've got to do it all the time, that can be really, really draining or really difficult. I don't know. I d um it I I always flinch a little bit because and we're lumping all this. Disabled people together. Do you remember back in the day where employers would say, We want more disabled people working for us? So we're gonna get them all to work from home. And we're like, Hold up, disabled people deserve a right to be in the office like everybody else. If you're not in the office, do you miss out on opportunities? Do you miss out on the job training? Do you miss out on uh the socialization? Do you miss out on all the informal things that happen that you absorb and makes you better and so on? So uh what am I trying to say? I'm trying to work out that I think you're right. There are some people with certain impairments that working from home is the absolute solution, and forcing them in because of some new reintroduced rule is a problem. Um I do worry about that. But I I don't know, I I don't want it to be just because you've got a disability, you all work from home. I know you're not saying that.

AI As Leverage For Disabled Workers

Phil 22:52

No, no, we're not we're clearly not saying that. And some of the things you've said matter hugely. Being part of a team, understanding how relationships work in the office, all that kind of thing is also important. But but it but but you know, the the knock-on effect of trying to get everybody back to work in offices is having a disproportionate effect on the disability employee, yeah, and that seems unfair. Um but um I don't know, is it inevitable? I mean, uh we've got AI around the corner threatening apparently all sorts of jobs, all sorts of roles, and one of the ways of you know getting around having people coming to offices is to get rid of the people. Just have robots or AI is doing all the admin. Do you know what I mean? I I I'm very struck actually. One of the things that strikes me about disabled people, always has, is how inventive they can be, how clever they can be at finding a solution to things. And I'm urging all disabled people now to study AI for all it's worth and make sure that you really understand how it works and how you can exploit it, because you will be in an economic situation which many are not, they're threatened by it. Instead of us being threatened by it, we should be gripping it and say, how does this work? And if that means I don't have to go to work in an office anymore as part of my skill sets, because I've got AI doing all sorts of crazy stuff for me, then fair enough. The world is not going to be about filling in columns in balance sheets anymore. Those days are gone. Accountancy, all those kinds. So educationally and training-wise, I think disabled people should be looking for careers in AI or at least manipulating it to their own ends.

Simon 24:40

And your original point, which is a very real one and a pretty terrifying one, is are disabled people getting forgotten again. Is there a general pushback? And I think we know with access to work, we know with some employment schemes, we know the general pushback in some organizations about EDI because of influence elsewhere. Um, and then this and the bit which I think you bang on is yet again, organizations are making policies or decisions and they're not doing the impact bit about saying, well, well, this disproportionately affects certain people. I totally agree with you like that, and it it bugs me. And if they've done the assessment to say this is gonna have a disproportionate, let's have a chat and see. Okay, so what what groups of people is this really rubbish for, and what others could be a bit more creative and get them in. And I I you know there's a there's a bit of work to be done. I I even put it in AI. What should we be doing? Um I like your other point, and I keep quoting um a vice chancellor or Oxford University, um, because that's the sort of circle I hang out in now.

Phil 25:48

Of course, I'm very I'm in awe.

Policy Pushback And Impact Assessments

Simon 25:49

I mean, you're more to border than gowns. For those of you not on YouTube, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Uh uh, and she said we have new students coming in all the time, and we say to them, You'll be the generation that will be unbelievably brilliant at AI because you're using it at this point. But she said, What we will teach you to do is think, and that's where I kind of go. So if you uh I like your bit about disabled people, be smart, use AI, use your thinking criter uh capabilities because that's the bit that is still valuable, but AI can do a whole load of other stuff as well.

Phil 26:23

Absolutely, oh absolutely.

Simon 26:25

Um is this a good time to uh tell people we have got Sir Charlie Mayhew coming up on our podcast in June. And if you don't know who he is, he was the former boss of John Lewis, but he was appointed by the government to look into the disability employment gap. Uh, and we're gonna have a chat with him all about this. So this could be a topic that will be.

Phil 26:48

I don't think you should mention that, no.

Simon 26:50

No, I'll take it back. You rather ignore that everyone, yeah. Ignore those last 40 seconds.

Phil 26:58

I can't wait. I think that'll be a really interesting conversation, actually.

Simon 27:04

It is give or take a few days. It's our 10th birthday. We sat in your office where you live now 10 years ago with one microphone in between us and started coffee jobs. First, I mean we had a little look back to see what was going on um uh back in the day. And the general news story is the Brexit referendum had just started this time 10 years ago. There was a verdict uh on Hillsborough where uh the fans were unlawfully killed. This had taken years and years of campaigning to get there, and there was a junior doctor strike. Um uh disability-wise there is, isn't there?

Phil 27:42

Isn't there still a junior doctor's strike?

Ten Years Of The Way We Roll

Simon 27:45

Uh it is terrifying as you get older when you see these stories repeat themselves. So um, disability stories, welfare cuts, personal independence payment. I mean no change there. Well, also the far-reaching. Do you remember they said we're gonna cut right back? Less people will get pip. It's more people than ever. I mean, it's gone through the roof. Neurodiverse people now get pip and higher rate mobility pip. That was never the plan. I mean, this is really interesting to see 10 years later. Um, and uh at the time Ian Duncan Smith was the leader of the Tory party, he resigned because of the backlash of the changes. Can you imagine that today? Um, anyway, there was stuff around accessibility and transport and stuff around uh the due doctor's strike having a disproportionate effect on disabled people. Um that first ever show we talked about being inspirational and unpicked that, and we talked about disability air travel. I listened to three-quarters of the show the other day.

Phil 28:48

Well, you're very good. You're very, very good. Oh we were we were quite good. Yeah, what was the sound quality like? You know, better than I thought. Was it? Yeah because that was always the nightmare trying to get the quality right. We were moved on from that, didn't we, Simon? Because we then started meeting at your lovely flat in Crouch End, where we'd have a nice lunch and then we would do the thing. And then we invite you invited guests to come into your flat. We had sort of like three microphones, and it all got very professional.

Simon 29:20

I mean, we haven't oh sorry.

Phil 29:22

I'm just gonna say I remember it very affectionately actually. We're nice, it was good to meet and just do the do the pod.

Simon 29:29

Um we called it the Phil and Simon show back in the day. Yes, we rebranded about five, six years ago to the way we roll. Um uh I think COVID was a very interesting time because we went from monthly shows to weekly shows. We did, and we spent a lot of time in it. The joy I remember was everybody was available. Amazing guests. Um I also remember we did a health uh an update, we'd do a medical update, we would have a culture corner with Jeff, and he'd tell us these are things we might want to listen to or watch or catch up on. We were like a public service for a little while, and I mean I don't overplay it, but I remember getting some nice emails at the time saying, you know, the show has really helped me stay in touch and feel okay about things. Um I haven't practiced this or rehearsed it. Do you have a standout moment or a couple of favourite moments in these last ten years?

Phil 30:27

That's put me on the spot, hasn't it?

Simon 30:29

Um shall I throw one in myself? Oh, okay.

Phil 30:32

Yeah, well, no, go on then. You've kick us off and I'll give you time to think.

Standout Guests And Favorite Moments

Simon 30:35

That was exactly. I don't if you have one, I'm quite happy, but I thought it's give you breathing space. We're still rubbish, aren't we? Still just talk over each other and have no idea. I just well I just said we haven't rehearsed this. Never rehearsed anything. Never, never in a million years. Uh is it Professor Campbell on Ableism? It was a standout show for me. I think it's our most listened to show. Um and the reason I it makes me smile, not just because it was really interesting what she talked about and what the concept of ableism is and how long it's been around. And well, this is a I don't know, five years ago, this show at least. The thing that struck me was it was one of those few times where our guest completely took over, and we probably got about five words in. I mean, you know, you and I can talk, and you and I know how to interview, and yet uh Professor Campbell, we just let her run. She just was she was excellent.

Phil 31:29

She was and very, very thank you for giving me a few seconds. The the one I that came straight to my mind actually, and I can't remember the another professor, I can't remember his name. I think he works in Wales, Bristol, maybe at Bristol Munich. And he did a pod about the history of disability and how it was treated back in the day. Um and I remember him talking about the treatment of a blind worker and things like that. It was I it kind of I still remember it. That's the point. I still remember it. It made a big impression on me.

Simon 32:12

David Turner, Professor David.

Phil 32:14

David Turner, yeah. David Turner, yeah. Really good guest actually, explained things very, very well, but had some stories that kind of thought, my god, we think we've got it tough.

Simon 32:26

Forget it.

Phil 32:27

Yeah, no, he was good. There were some good fun ones. Do you remember the guy from um The Last Leg? Alex Brooker. Alex Brooker. Very entertaining.

Simon 32:39

I like that because uh he had made a documentary and one of his brothers has said his disability doesn't define him. We said to Alex, we want you on to discuss what does it doesn't define me actually mean. Um something that has happened over the years is we've been very lucky with the guests. I write to most of the people, and you know, sometimes it's quite hard to locate them or pin them down. I don't think I've had a uh anyone decline our show. That's and that can be very famous people or eminent people in their field or just people we've got a real affection for or interesting. You know, it doesn't mean say we get them next month, we might have to book it in a few months ahead. But we've been really fortunate in people have said yes, up for that.

Phil 33:24

Um yeah, I think that's very true. And I think for those people that listen to us, we know that it's an audience that is obviously interested in disability stuff, not all of them disabled people, but many of them are. And it strikes me that over that 10 years there's quite a it's a bit like the BBC archive, you know. Some of the interviews we have with people like Jane Campbell and Kate Nash and Susan Scott Parker, and these these people made history um in their own ways. And if you're an interested person about disability and the history of it, for example, then you could do worse than listen to the conversations we've had with some of those people because they do explain and explore why they did what they did, and you know.

Why The Back Catalogue Matters

Simon 34:08

Whenever I do my training, I always say one thing you could listen to is the way we roll. And I said, because it's got 10 years, it's a body of work, it's over a hundred podcasts of Phil and I discussing topics of the day, or very interesting, knowledgeable guests talking about their field. So you can pick and choose whatever. It also has moments like Abby Brown, who is one of our people we're going to be working with shortly at Nadex, and she wrote to me once and said, I was sitting in the park listening and roared with laughter when Phil was talking about something very serious, and I made a some joke, appropriately, sort of, about your male appendage, um, which stops you in your tracks. And I and I love the fact that you know we're we're really deep and heavy, and and then something there's some old knob joke that comes in and stops Abby or gets Abby.

Phil 34:57

I'm glad I don't remember the moment, thank goodness. Yeah, but you know, we've had Rosie Jones, you know, comedian, and uh people like her, you know, you're right actually. If you went through them and looked at the people we've spoken to, it is a fairly heavyweight list, no question.

Simon 35:17

The thing that the risk of losing every guest we ever will have in the future is the numbers-wise, the you and me are normally 10-20% better in terms of listens than the guest ones. Oh there's exceptions, like Professor Campbell, uh, but um often you and me wanging on about something has been.

Phil 35:39

Well, I know that we've had some correspondence from people saying they quite enjoy that too and fro. The kind of knob joke in the middle of the park moment you know, clearly resonates with our audience. I think that what we've always felt though, you and I, is that because of our difference in ages, our difference in backgrounds and upbringing and so on, and our different disability and that kind of and our different way of seeing the world adds a certain chemistry or something to the discussion, which because you know, I don't think without blowing our own trumpets, we don't always agree. We you know, there are times when you and I both quite strongly disagree with each other, but there we go.

Simon 36:20

We kind of essentially the rest is disability.

Phil 36:23

We were the yes, goal hanger productions. Hope you're listening.

Simon 36:27

But we were Alistair and Rory before we were people who have differences, but generally had a agreement on the end game. But how you got there might be different.

Phil 36:36

Uh so we're claiming credit now for the rest is politics.

Simon 36:39

Well, I I think so.

Phil 36:40

I think I think it's perfect perfectly fair from where I'm sitting.

Simon 36:44

Why why do we call ourselves the way we roll? We could have been the rest is disability.

Phil 36:47

The rest is disability. I'll give Gary Linnacker a call. See if he wants to come on the show. Yeah, so it's been a very interesting well lot. Do you reckon we'll be here in ten years' time?

Simon 36:57

Yeah, I mean, who knows? We could be up for an oh, you've already got an OBE. There you go.

Phil 37:01

Yeah, but I could have a with bar, couldn't I? Have a little OBE with bar.

Simon 37:06

What's with bar?

Phil 37:08

Well, military medals sometimes, though. You get a distinguished flying cross. If you get a distinguished flying cross with bar, I think I'm understanding this right, then it's equivalent of two military crosses. You did something exceptional twice. But they don't give you two DFCs, they give you one, but with a bar.

Simon 37:26

Your knowledge of the honour system shows your working class roots are well left behind.

Phil 37:34

Um no, I was an assessor on the King's Award for Voluntary Service, and I was an assessor proud to have been one too, and I learned quite a lot about the honour system through that process. Uh but you're quite right, I'm not working class anymore. But we're fine.

Assisted Dying Bill Fails Scotland Vote

Simon 37:51

I've not that's a good one. There you go. We we're teaching people yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, happy birthday. Um both of us. Uh, before we go, um, some news elements. Yours was about members of Scottish Parliament, MSP.

Phil 38:09

Yes, I don't know whether this will have passed our listeners by. Possibly it has, but uh last week, well no, this week. Where are we? It's Friday. This week. Um, and if you're listening in July, it doesn't much matter. I wouldn't worry about dates. Okay. Um, the Scottish Parliament voted on the uh assisted suicide bill that was going through their particular parliament, the Holyrood, and we the the the uh bill was lost by I think it was 69 votes to 57. Um, this is clearly an incredibly emotive subject, but I think what really hit was our continuing arguments from my side of this debate, which is that the bill was not safe. The safeguards and various other things were not safe. So so that's uh good news for our side, not good news for the other side, and one shouldn't be gloating or jumping up and down with glee, but it does mean that disabled people in Scotland are not going to be put through potentially serious risk and harm because of that.

Simon 39:12

So was the bill that was put forward significantly different to um the England and Wales one? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Phil 39:22

The thrust wasn't really. They were similar. Uh not exactly worded the same, but the similar kind of thing. Um the big debate both in the Lords and Parliament down here in England is um about safeguards coercion and things of that sort. That was much the same in Scotland. And a lot of the MSPs who voted for it at stage one uh changed because they said they weren't happy with the bill, but they wanted to go through the process to see what safeguards were brought in, then they might change their minds, but they didn't. In fact, several MSPs switched from supporting it to voting against. So the writing w what it means, I think, for the the the UK wide debate is um this adds some energy to the concerns that campaigners have got. We'll have to see what happens. But I think we'll know the outcome in May when um the recess happens and um the session of parliament ends. And if it hasn't gone through the Lords by then, then it's over and out and they have to reintroduce it.

A Great Listen On Disability TV

Simon 40:27

Um I wanted a little shout out for a podcast that I listen to, which is called Disability and Dot Dot Dot, which is Disability Arts Online. Um, and they had Jack Thorne, the playwright, and Eddie Beaton, who is the new uh sort of head of the TV Access Project. And this has been a project that's been going on for about five years to change how TV and disability work together to improve it. And it was just a really I like the show because one Jack was saying how it kind of started and this TV Access project and how it all took off. And you know, he's he's such a gracious speaker, he was talking about everybody else, but he was clearly very instrumental. Um, and Ellie's talking about well, okay, we've got to this point, where do we go next? And one of them was like things like career development and stuff. Um, it was just a really interesting listen. Um, maybe you couldn't need to worry about disability and TV to listen, but I thought it was good.

Phil 41:19

Okay, must let's take a listen to that then. Okay. Well, I think we might be done, Mr. Minti.

Thanks, Contact Info, And Goodbye

Simon 41:27

Indeed, we are. Uh well, thank you if you are uh a long-term listener, and thank you if you've just found us for the first time. Um as ever, we love to hear from you. Job us online, uh what is it?

Phil 41:40

Minti and friend or at gmail.co no.com.

Simon 41:45

There we go. Um, and we're on social media, so LinkedIn and Instagram, they're two of our favorites, but a Facebook as well. Um, thank you so much for listening. And uh yeah, that's it. See you soon, everybody.

Phil 41:58

Take care.

Announcer 41:59

This is the way we roll, presented by Simon Minty and Phil Friend. You can email us at mintyandfriend at gmail.com or just search for minty and friend on social media. We're on Facebook, Twitter, and LinkedIn.